Hello and welcome to Palestina-podden. Today's guest is someone Rania accidentally and luckily met one day when you were working at the Palestine store. Yes, an American environmental engineer and community organizer called Renee came by and it turned out she participated in the student encampments in the US for Palestine and
the student encampments in the US started the global movement for students, which is also in Norway and still going in Norway.
Renee Jameson has been a social justice activist since she was 14, related to food security, homelessness, anti-racism, pollution and more. She holds a Bachelor of Science in Environmental Engineering with a self-designed focus on race and justice. Her focus involves studying the root causes of environmental problems, namely capitalism,
colonialism and white supremacy. Much of the things that concern the Palestinian cause. We are looking forward to speak with Rene. Hope you enjoy the episode.
Renée, thank you so much for joining us at Palestina Poden. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. You've been here for the past month and we're going to talk about your work that you've been doing here and what you've been researching. But first of all, I want to talk to you about the student encampments in the US, specifically in Boston and Harvard, because you've been to those encampments.
Can you just take us through what's been happening in the US and talk a bit about the encampments there?
Absolutely. Let me forward with, I think in the media, that encampments have a reputation for being violent and destructive and being anti-Semitic, and that is just the farthest from the truth. These spaces are what it looks like for people to take back land and run it on principles of community and care rather than profit, which is a threat to these really big institutions that want us to be not only isolated, but just afraid of imagining what our world could look like.
These encampments are multi-faith, multicultural. They often have free programming and libraries and education spaces and resources. Some of them have gardens, which is really cool. They're providing people with free food. They often have free medics. But what I also love is that they have really, at least the ones I've been a part of and gotten to visit, amazing systems around accountability and conversations.
And it is a wonderful example of what it can look like for communities to self-govern and really proves that we can keep each other safe. And I think that the statement they make at these elite institutions is huge because it shows that our best learning around standing up against injustice, against genocide, against oppression will not come from our degrees, will not come from these fancy institutions validating knowledge. Our best learning happens on the street and it happens amongst each other and in spaces like the encampments.
So I'm not a student anymore, but I've had the privilege to go by and spend time at the, allegedly, in case that's important, I don't know if legally, allegedly, I've been spending time at the Harvard encampment, the Tufts University encampment, and the Northeastern encampment. And each of them have been
And the MIT encampment was very popular. I didn't get the chance to go by. But each of them have been founded under very different environments socially and amongst the schools. But Boston is, in my opinion, a very Zionist city. But at the same time, I really do think the majority of people are with Palestine. And when we were able to get organized and come together in these spaces, we were proving that.
But these students, I just absolutely commend them because they were facing such violent repression by the police. Many at certain encampments were quite literally beaten. And unfortunately, all of them are dissolved today. But many lasted for around, I think, 20 to 30 days, which was huge. Again, the context that they existed is very different from the University of Oslo encampment, which I've had the privilege to learn from and go by. They're fantastic. They've been around for over 100 days.
But they have, as they've explained to me, a certain kind of permission by the university versus in Boston, it was students needed to always have the capacity to defend the spaces. They were always under constant threat of being run through by police. So that risk was very real.
And they, in the various encampments, again, under different conditions, needed to be empowered and have very well-defined understandings of their risks of not only arrest, but many today, now that encampments have been dissolved, some democratically voted for that to happen. Some were forced by police.
But many are still facing academic probation. There are various seniors, I believe, still at Harvard that have not gotten their diplomas. And they have regularly communicated that standing up for Palestine and standing against genocide is worth it. But it is unjust for these institutions that have majors like international relations and, you know, minors and peace and justice studies to not...
to prioritize their investment portfolios over the well-being of students and people globally. It's completely disgusting. So I don't want to center myself, but I want to say that I'm so proud and inspired by particularly the class of 2024 and what they did and what they're continuing to do.
This is not over, even though the encampments are currently not standing. The new school year is about to start and we're already seeing language from universities across the country further repressing anti-genocide and anti-Zionism efforts.
So I know at NYU and New York that they, I believe, made Zionist like a protected identity trait. So now people can't critique it without fear of academic probation action, et cetera. I actually saw today that New York State
saying Zionist is anti-Semitism by law now. It's so clear how in the pocket these institutions are to really wealthy Zionist forces. It's disgusting. It really is. At the University of California, San Francisco, I believe they had a healthcare worker that was fired for advocacy around Palestine. We are seeing these institutions really
really be put on their head in terms of being challenged and students resisting the status quo and again their understanding of we need to be quiet within these ivory towers to succeed and say no we know what's right and I'm so in awe and really inspired by that and thrilled that it's also inspired students globally including here who are still doing that amazing work.
Yeah, because how... Sorry. No worries. No, you go on. How was it like to see it spread in the US and also around the world? Yeah, I think in...
It's hard to know who did what first. It doesn't really matter. I know that most news is on the really famous universities in America, but there are encampments really at most universities, if not almost all, in New York City and Boston, both places that are near and dear to my heart. And to see the commitment of people across, again, different identities, different majors,
During also finals, which in the scheme of there's a genocide going on does not matter but these students were really putting so much on the line to stand on business and it was just really amazing to see. Also very scary like members of our communities we really wanted to step in and make sure students were being fed. It was also like the weather still wasn't great. A lot of fear around police brutality. There was a recognition that the people in encampments are the most marginalized people
I think there's sometimes a narrative abroad that it's like, oh, these fancy kids at Harvard. Like, no, these were working class students on scholarships, again, putting themselves on the line to show up. And not just in Boston, really across the encampments that were doing this because they believed it was right. But I don't think I expected to see how big it got. I always knew that like the majority of people, we really do stand with Palestine and but seeing how
Yeah, it just spread across the nation. And shout out to the University of California students. They were really holding it down, occupying buildings. I think this is...
It's just, yeah, it's amazing to see what can happen when we get organized together and put aside, you know, respectability and niceness to say, no, what's happening is really unacceptable and it is worth whatever risk. So it was really I remember waking up that morning and seeing all these encampments in the US and I was like, this is exactly what's need what needs to happen right now.
It gave so much hope. And we got a great song of it from Macklemore as well. Yeah, great. But it was really... How was it to get that shout out in the song as well? Oh, I mean, again, not me. I'm not a student, but I think it's really cool. I think in the US there's mixed thoughts on Macklemore, but
I personally think he's standing on business as well and prioritizing the wellness of people and learning in a very public manner. I think sometimes, not just with celebrities, but with people, we don't allow people to learn and grow and recognize, "I was wrong about this, and now I've learned, and I'm understanding this now, and I'm doing better." So the fact that he's doing that in a very public manner and really reflecting on his whiteness and privilege, I respect that. I think it's really great. I think if you have a platform and you're a celebrity and you have not spoken out about this genocide,
you
I think it's irresponsible. Absolutely. So, yeah. And I totally agree that, you know, people haven't, they don't know. And you should have known probably, especially about Palestine, I think, because it's such a long history of
what do you call it? I've just lost words. Oppression. It's been such an apartheid, occupation, now genocide. And I think that we can get angry, sometimes we can get a bit angry too quickly at people for not knowing or doing anything. But we also have to forgive people that have
taking the time to learn and now speaking out about Palestine. Can I just shoot something in there? Because it's probably easier for us to say, of course, since we're Palestinians, but also growing up in Norway, we don't have like AIPAC and lobbyists. How is it for the... Because it's kind of the Zionist brainwashing also going on over there. So how's your perspective on what Branya said as well?
In the U.S., we are in the belly of the beast. We are in an empire that has its hand in every country and is just the most well-funded military force in the world and very deliberately does not invest in the education of people and does not want members of the public to understand our history around settler colonialism with our indigenous people, of slavery and its consequences today, of racism,
harm and occupation of other countries and the funding and often destabilizing of other governments, other governments, other countries' governments. And it's very deliberate. So I think it can be really hard and it does have consequences. Like it is serious to have people be delayed in their knowledge of these issues because it costs lives. But at the same time, like we need to acknowledge there's such strong propaganda by America to Americans that
Not only are we the best in the world, which I think we only are in relation to gun violence and number of incarcerated people. So that's not really something to be bragging about. But not only that we're the best in the world, but that we will never have anything better.
So even though people are aware that they are struggling to put food on the table and pay their rent and we have terrible and often many people do not have health care, we think this is the best we're going to get. And that is a deliberate tactic to keep us from learning about struggles elsewhere and connecting our struggles and realizing we are all being harmed by the same systems. And I'm hearing a lot in language, people saying, I can't worry about Palestine and genocide because of what's happening here.
And we really need to shift that conversation to say, well, the reason you were struggling to do these things is because over the decades, the U.S. has sent Israel over 300 billion, with a B, dollars to Israel to fund their free health care or their free education, but also the mass slaughter of indigenous peoples.
rather than investing in life in our communities. So I wish we had a really good conversation and a more wide conversation saying, why does the U.S. always have money for war and genocide and destruction? And what could our country look like if we invested in life the way that we invested in death?
And also, it's the 300 billion in the US, but you have all the other wars as well. Yes. And Jordan and Egypt as well, they are funding quite a lot as well. Yeah. And I think that number is outdated on my part. I think since October 7th, it's been another probably 80 billion. I think that's what the numbers are saying. Yeah.
Not that I want Americans to be selfish, but there could be a movement of more conservative people saying, why are our dollars going elsewhere? Like, where's that energy? Being like, no, we should invest here. Yeah, because even here, I think we also think like you hear about the health care in the U.S., you hear about education, you see the separation between the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. You hear about all these...
different areas in life in the US and then you're at the same time reading I was watching the UN Security Council the other day and they were like, you know, it's the US ambassador was saying, you know It's so terrible these children and Gaza and then on the scroll underneath it says US supplies Israel with 20 billion more dollars of weapon sales and money and you're like
not only the contrast in that conversation and in that scroll, but also having that in mind that you could, just as you said now, like putting effort into life rather than death, like how would that
How would that be? And that should be a movement for sure. Yeah. And our government just being like, we were working, I'll be very specific, Harris saying, we were working so hard to get a ceasefire. I saw a great tweet that was like, babes, you're the fire.
Exactly. A phone call. This genocide could end with a phone call. And yeah, this settler colonial project has been going on for over 76 years. And I also think, going back to your point about education in the U.S., there's not awareness on that. Many people...
I've talked to have said, oh, well, the Palestinians started it. October 7th, they started it. And it takes so much effort to increase the political consciousness to say, no, this has been going on so far beyond that. And, um,
No, that's just not the case. And the Suttler Colonial Project, I mean, I know we use the language of genocide since October, but this has been a genocide from the beginning. This has been a slow violence and in some moments an escalated violence. But this project has just escalated their genocide since October. And it's embarrassing to be an American and know we are contributing to that, whether we like it or not. Yeah.
But at the same time to be an American also stand up against it when it can be so difficult as well I think that's it's a lot of respect to you that educate people and are standing up for the Palestinian. So Thanks. Thank you. And I think also like if we should because
I've watched, there's two films specifically this year that I watched. It's Israelism. I don't know if you've seen it, but also... I've heard of it. I haven't had the privilege to watch it yet. I really want to. It's Israelism and Praying for Armageddon, which tells you about the systems. And one thing is the religious system in the US about how...
Hebrew schools teach Israel as a part of your religion it's like totally indoctrinated in the in the religion and then also praying for them again which talk about the Israeli lobbyists and the
and the Christians and AIPAC and everything that all run this lobby of ensuring that Israel stays the way it is so that Jesus will return there. And watching that film, you're like, oh man...
Where do we start and how do we move on from this? Because it's such a tough thing to break through to. Like René said, it's not only about education, it's also about propaganda and the education is hidden on purpose. That's a hard one.
Just going a bit back to the student encampments now, because students have historically been strong progressive forces in society with sit-ins against segregation and political exclusion of African Americans since the 60s.
anti-apartheid protests in the 90s and etc. Do you think these movements were an inspiration for the US encampments this year? Absolutely. I think as organizers we have a duty to look at what our ancestors and other organizers that came before us have done to advance the movement and all these efforts have been a blueprint that we've been able to build upon to successfully move forward on our points. I think particularly Colombia
I might misspeak a little on this history, but they, I think it was maybe in the 70s, was the last time police were brought onto campus to resist student protests. And it ended with people being very, very badly hurt. And the scenes looked like a war zone. And there was a promise by Columbia to never do that again. An apology saying that was wrong. We won't do it again. And here they are just like repeating it.
I do think history often repeats itself, and it's so frustrating to see these institutions, again, showing how dedicated they are to their portfolios and to institutions abroad causing so much environmental and social harm. But we are continuously studying, at least the spaces I'm in, one of the organizing groups
Places I work with is the Boston Liberation Center, which is a socialist working class community center. And we are regularly looking to what people did before us to learn from and advance our movements around fighting for more affordable housing, securing green space, actually
actually the street that the Boston Liberation Center is located on is the same street that the Boston Black Panthers had their, uh, organizing headquarters on, which like, oh my gosh, to live in that legacy. Um, and they accomplished amazing things. They had, um, uh,
a free health clinic that was operating every day with volunteer black and white doctors. This was like 60s, 70s. They had free educational programming. They were able to prevent a highway from being constructed through a black neighborhood to today, which gave space for the development of our community college there. So we are continuously looking to the past and seeing what people have done and, uh,
that history about the Black Panthers I'm sharing and also just the tactics that you're describing done by other activists is another thing that's deliberately not shared in our education. And people really need to seek out community spaces to learn this because they don't want us knowing that these struggles were successfully accomplished by everyday people. They want us to feel disconnected. They want us to feel...
distracted and unempowered but the reality is that working class people we've been getting things done from the start yeah
We've all seen videos of police brutality against demonstrations in the US and heard of students being kicked out of their schools for advocating for Palestine. What
What consequences has your participation in the process had for you personally and professionally and people you know? Yeah. So again, I'm not a student, so academically I'm not being impacted. But I do think it's really important to say that in the U.S., as you've seen, people are losing their jobs. People are losing funding for projects and research and opportunities for standing with Palestine, for standing against genocide, which is...
just ridiculous. But what that really means is that we are not free. If we cannot stand against a humanitarian crisis, if we cannot recognize genocide and say this is wrong, none of us are free. And
Until all of us are free, none of us are free. That's just baseline. But in terms of other specific consequences, yeah, a lot of students still are on probation. A lot of students still haven't received their diplomas after spending four years paying money to these institutions. Again, for standing up for human rights, it's absolutely ridiculous.
There is a continuous threat and pressure by institutions and people with money and power to continue to not speak about Palestine. And it's very real. Like all of this comes at a risk and even physical safety and consequences. But it's worth it. Yeah.
I think it adds another layer as well, because you have a history of police brutality before the encampments as well. How was the dialogue between the students?
How are they feeling about it? Yeah, I'll zoom out a little if that's okay and say, because I've had really interesting conversations with people in Norway about 2020 in America, which I think globally is often called like a racial reckoning. And I think a lot of people don't know that since 2020, the US has had more police killings. We have had more investment in terms of money into our police departments.
We have not had justice for so many of the names that have gone viral globally. There was actually a George Floyd act that was passed in Congress. It gave more money to police departments. Which happened in... The killing of George Floyd happened in 2020. That's why. Yeah. Breonna Taylor, who was killed when she was in her home when I believe...
and it's sad that I even mix up all these different events, but it's so overwhelming how many there are. Recently, her boyfriend was charged with her murder, even though police killed her because he was defending them against when the police used, I believe, a no-knock warrant slash didn't properly identify themselves going into their apartment. He's now being charged as well.
as responsible for her death. We have not... White people treated 2020 like a racial reckoning because COVID-19, when we were all locked down, they were forced to acknowledge this. And all these institutions suddenly were like, anti-racism, no police brutality, yeah, but...
It was so much easier for them to say Black Lives Matter rather than concrete policy-oriented things like invest in communities, defund police, put that money towards making our communities safer with resources. So things have not been better. I just want to forward that. We often treat it like, yes, we did this big progress, but it was white people finally acknowledging things that black, brown, indigenous people have been saying forever, but
All these institutions only viewed police brutality and racism as real when white people said it was real. Messed up. Already foundation of 2020 is distorted.
So, understanding that police brutality has gotten worse in the US since, these students, again, just incredibly brave. And well, I want to emphasize how also well organized they are. The encampment spaces I was a part of, they had very strict security, community safety plans.
I want to give credit to how thoughtful they really were and intentional in planning these things. It wasn't willy-nilly, we're going to set up a tent. This was well-organized, thought through, allegedly, things that, again, show that our best learning is not happening in these institutions. These degrees that we're getting from schools will not be tools of liberation. It is this thoughtfulness that's occurring in the streets.
Well, I have so many questions right now, but they all just mushed into one. But it's one thing I want to talk about as well, because you mentioned George Floyd, is that Black Lives Matter movement that happened and how we sort of also reflect on how it was such a big thing in 2020. And then suddenly people, you know, we did one big thing in two months during lockdown. And then
slowly again we're like okay we did something and then we just stopped talking about it and it's still a problem and it has gotten worse and I think that's something we also are a bit wary about because we're Palestinians we're like is this just a trend now or well not to call that a trend but
You know what I mean? Like people jump on the wagon, they feel like they've done something good and they're like, okay, I've done my part and then they leave. This is something that I reflect on. And I think we should be talking equally about Palestinian lives and black lives and brown lives and indigenous lives because all of it is connected. Yeah, exactly. And it's only when white people talk about it that suddenly it becomes clear.
a bigger thing, which is an interesting reflection. But we're going to move on to something else because one of the things that you've been working with is access to water under apartheid.
What is the situation like with water access for Palestinians? Yeah, let me start with the first time I engaged with learning about and doing a project on access to water under apartheid conditions was when I was in a university and I had the privilege to learn a lot from and collaborate with this amazing nonprofit organization called One for Three. They're based in Boston, they're Palestinian run, and they are dedicated to advancing access to water, food,
healthcare and education for Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank and UN-run refugee camps. And yeah, I've done most of my learning from them and with them, and I'm hoping to continue volunteering with them in the future. So just shout out to them for really doing incredible work around water quality
in quantity testing, establishing hydroponics gardens to grow food and better secure food security, hiring lots of local Palestinian healthcare workers, running a kindergarten. Just, yeah, so my learning, it really has come from them.
That first project I did was really the start of me examining what are these unique environmental and social conditions that get in the way of people having basic right to water. So I'll frame it as prior to October 7th.
And really, I guess, start in 1967 when Israel occupied, you know, and had control over the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem. They also were fully in control of all the water infrastructure and they implemented this order. It's called like the military order. I'm going to mess up the number 158, I think.
And this order basically said that Palestinians cannot create new water infrastructure without permission from the Israeli army. And this includes things like
creating new wells or even deepening wells or, you know, creating new rainwater collection systems or desalinization systems, which is completely unjust. And on top of controlling water infrastructure in Palestinian areas, Israel also limited severely water that was just
being accessed by Palestinian people. So the World Health Organization says that people need around 100 liters of water a day to live like a healthy lifestyle. And Israel was limiting it at the, this is again prior to October 7th, to Palestinians having maybe like 60 to 70 liters a day. After October 7th,
reports came out that it was down to as low as three liters a day. And this was like right in October. Now there's practically no clean water and we're seeing the spread of very preventable diseases, which is again a part of this settler colonial effort to kill off a population. Prior to October 7th as well, I believe around 26% of diseases in Gaza specifically were water related.
So, we're seeing that. It was already an issue. It was already an area that needed resources and work that was being ignored.
it's gotten catastrophic. We also see that currently there's no sewage or waste infrastructure. That's a risk to health and disease. We're seeing that land and agricultural infrastructure, all of it, this is going to have... it's just so overwhelming and deadly now, but we're going to be seeing this for generations because I believe when Palestine is free and we're rebuilding, there's still going to be environmental consequences. This is just
really overwhelming in how never-ending it is. But I think there's just a particular sickness around limiting access to water, a good that should be free. And prior to October 7th as well, on top of just limiting severely the amount of water people had, it often forced Palestinian families to buy from Israeli water companies at completely upcharged prices. So this is just
A compounding of limiting infrastructure, limiting opportunities, the Israeli army purposely destroying rainwater collection systems and cisterns, like,
It's just really nasty and I feel as an environmental engineer, which I'm learning is not a title here, so I've had to explain that a lot to people. Let me know if I should at any point. Please do, for those who don't know. But as an environmental engineer, which I'll explain what that is, I have a responsibility to speak about this environmental injustice.
And then, yes, I realized during my introduction that the two terms I used to describe myself, environmental engineer and community organizer, don't really translate in Norwegian. So environmental engineer, I studied engineering. I did all the math. I did all the science. But I uniquely have like a focus on environmental systems and structures. I want to address environmental problems.
And the work I do today is research and advocacy around environmental hazards that marginalized communities are disproportionately exposed to. So that is why from the beginning I was like Palestinian folks in water, Palestinian folks in food, that this is environmental concerns. But I also work in the US with like indigenous tribes and water contamination,
with historically segregated communities and air pollution, access to green space. So that is what I mean when I'm an environmental engineer. Unfortunately, some others, they're working for big oil. They're doing weird consulting, but yeah. And then community organizing. I think the most similar term used here, it's kind of like activism, but we like to kind of
specify that we are about mobilizing members of our community to take action in really thoughtful ways to respond to and advance our material conditions and well-being. So, yeah.
Long answer. Oh, it's good. It's a perfect segue to our next question as well. You've been focusing on ecocide in Palestine. Can you tell us a bit about that? Yeah, ecocide is the deliberate action
effort to destroy environments, and either due to negligence or just like deliberate destruction, I think is real. It's both. But it's actually a war crime by both the Geneva Conditions and I think some kind of other statute. And
When we're talking about Palestine, I think we've already kind of talked about water, but this is also about the trees and the vegetation. I particularly want to mention olive trees, which not only is very significant culturally to a lot of Palestinians, but
these are old growth trees that take so long to grow. And not just with olive trees, but trees globally, it is old growth trees that are taking the most carbon dioxide out of our air. And new growth trees don't do the same thing. Like it takes them a long time to have that same capacity. So this thought that, oh,
you know, when Palestine is free, we will be able to just simply build back what we had. Like, no, like this is one of a kind destruction that is so, so painful, again, culturally and environmentally. Some trees, sorry, some trees, for those who don't know, they've actually been growing for like centuries, like 800 years, more than that. And people keep them for generations and then they just go and burn them and
It's just really like, yeah. Thank you for saying that. I also think there's a particular sickness of the... We've been seeing, obviously, Israel has limited food, water, fuel, electricity. But the fuel, I think, is particularly sickening because it has, at least I've heard in the news, forced a lot of Palestinian folks to cut down trees that mean so much to them because...
We're in a bare bones survival situation. But other impacts on the environment, I mean, the soil for generations is going to be contaminated, not just from like the rubble and infrastructure falling, but like asbestos going into it and other contaminants. Something that One for Three, the organization I mentioned earlier, is doing is actually research on tear gas and how...
it remains in the environment and what kind of effects it has being in water long term. Because tear gas is actually like a very fine powder. So it can kind of last for, their research will say more, but for a little bit in the environment continuing to have an impact. And One for Three particularly works with the Ida refugee camp. And it was deemed that one of the most tear gas places in the world.
And these are small places. I wish I remembered this exact size, but these are small, dense places, the most tear gas place in the world. And we still don't understand the generational health impacts of that, people and, again, these ecosystems. So what we're really seeing is
A lot of my work is understanding that destruction of the planet is intertwined with destruction of people. Exploitation of people on the planet is intertwined. That is the goal of capitalism and colonialism and white supremacy. Frankly, Israel's genocide and settler colonial project is advancing climate change with the amount of carbon emissions from their
jets and that their bombs are producing and this should be viewed as a threat and an issue to people everywhere. For sure. I think it was Lina who said that I think it was her mother or someone in her family that said when they put the walls up the birds didn't come back to the trees. Right? So it's a lot of
It's a domino effect all the way. We talk about that in the US with the famous wall that they're trying to build dividing Mexico in the US that it also has really serious impacts on animals trying to move through. These borders are so dumb. Where can people read more about ecocide if they want to learn more? Because I think that's actually, I don't think that's a term that we use a lot.
When we're talking about Palestine, when you see the pictures of... Even the last pictures of Jenin, where they're tearing up streets and the way that they've destroyed Gaza, you have to think about what this actually does for the global climate as well, because there's so much...
shit basically it's just horrible so if people want to learn more about it well can you recommend anything where to read yeah um i'm obviously biased but in a good way i do think people should check out one for three one for literally the number one for3.org um because they have some resources and information about the work they're doing and why they do it in relation to uh environmental again and social impacts of the occupation and genocide um
But I also frankly think the Palestinian Youth Movement's Instagram has been a really nice job in sharing really good summaries of basic information for people around environmental impacts and otherwise that have been really useful tools. So shout out to them because, yeah, they're awesome. Yeah. We'll also add the link, of course, on the episode. Thank you.
We often ask our guests why they became activists. Why do you care about Palestine so much? But you've been a social justice activist since you were 14. And in your work, you criticize capitalism, colonialism and white supremacy, which is pretty much the main root of the Palestinian struggle. How did you...
What got you there as a 14 year old? Did you find out by yourself? Was it your parents? Very fair question. I'll also say like my critiques of capitalism, colonialism, white supremacy, like weren't happening at 14. Like that took time and growth. Let's say they did.
The first time I was introduced to Palestine was in high school. I took my senior year, a contemporary global issues class and the teacher, Ms. Davis, shout out Ms. Davis. She, she talked about the occupation of Palestine. She never used that language exactly. I don't, I grew up in a very Zionist community and what she probably wasn't allowed to use that language. But she taught the
the class so wonderfully to allow us to come to that conclusion. She showed us the maps. She gave us the information. When you give people the information and the opportunity to process things on their own, this is clearly genocide. This is clearly settler colonialism. You cannot argue with the information. So that was really the foundation for me. Also that class, wild. They literally brought in IOF soldiers. Those were the guest speakers. It was
I was getting radicalized so quickly. Oh my God. They did the job for you. Literally. So weird. And then in college, my university had a SJP chapter and SJP is like,
was so critical in my learning and growth. I wasn't a member, but I regularly attended their programming and collaborated, and I'm just so grateful for the free programming they're putting on across the country. Just really great. And that's when I did the Water Apartheid Project. That's when I started volunteering and fundraising and learning more from One for Three. And yeah, I...
We haven't gone back since. I think actually recently, this is something I'm excited about. At the Boston Liberation Center, I organized a learning to trees event from a local artist. And we also learned about ecocide in Palestine and the long history of black and Palestinian solidarity. And I think events like that are my one of my favorite kinds of organizing of people and education, because it was not just about getting the information to push people to show up in other ways, but organizing
and sharing Palestinian culture and stories. Like, oh, an honor to know some basics into trees like this beautiful. I get so proud when you say that. Oh, I'm going to have to show you mine after I brought it with me. I carry it with me everywhere and I'm always like, look.
But no, it's really such an honor. And Palestinian culture is so beautiful. And I've experienced such just like love and kindness and hospitality from Palestinian people. And let me also be clear, even if I didn't,
I would still be writing for y'all. It's not dependent on us having to be friendly or good. It is about a genocide. It is about an injustice against people, and none of us should be tolerating that. But I do want to highlight that there has been just a long history of particularly black and Palestinian solidarity that also is important to me in my own history because we're harmed by the same systems. As you mentioned, capitals and colonials and white supremacists
Right supremacy, Zionism, segregation, white supremacy, segregation, apartheid. I always try to tell people if they're not aware, black folks that have been writing for Palestine, Angela Davis, Toni Morrison, Nelson Mandela, Malcolm X, who went to Gaza, wrote Zionist logic, critiquing Zionism and saying it is not just a threat to Palestinians, but to the whole global South, to all oppressed peoples. They knew and they were telling us and...
Nelson Mandela, who again, wrote for Palestine, went and was like, I'm summarizing in Renee language, was like, I know apartheid. This is bad.
This might be worse. He literally said that in Renee language. We are harmed by this white supremacist force and going back to police brutality, a lot of police departments in the US train with Iowa. They are exchanging knowledge and literally do trips and get weapons and skills to further persecute and surveil and harm black, brown and indigenous people. We are harmed by the same forces. And
My university's police actually did trips.
What? You're a university police. This is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, that's a thing. That's a thing. Absolutely ridiculous. So anyway, I think even if we didn't have these...
these commonalities between our struggle, we should be showing up because period, we're showing up for each other. But I'm especially grateful as well to Palestinian folks in 2020 that when we were getting tear gassed by police and kettled by police, there was not only a lot of beautiful Black Lives Matter art in Palestine, but also Palestinians sharing online tips on how to deal with tear gas and how to deal with police brutality as well. So anyway, yeah.
We're kinfolk. And I'm really proud of that community that we have. Yeah, definitely. I think that was some of the things that like... Because in 2020 I produced a music video regarding what happened to George Floyd as well. Because you feel connected to it so much because it is the same struggle for sure.
I want to ask you as a citizen of the US, how do you feel about the upcoming election personally and also regarding to Palestine? Yeah, we're very obsessed with it in Norway. Absolutely. I have to say as an American in Norway right now, everyone I meet, they're like, what do you think? And I'm like, that's a fair question. Okay, first.
The U.S. does not have a democracy. We have an oligarchy. We have a system of government that is fully controlled by a small group of very wealthy people, including lobbyist groups. And I'm not just saying that. There literally is. And this is in relation to what policies get passed as well, controlled by this small group. And I'm not just saying that. There's literally a study by Princeton University that talks about how the
A small minority of very wealthy people and lobbyist groups have significant influence over what policies are passed in elections in comparison to average citizens and even mass interest in popular organized groups.
we do not have power in our society. It's in this voting system that was not created for us. So let's just start there. We treat ourselves like we're a great democracy. We're not.
I heard Israel is also a great democracy. Interesting. Yeah. So that already, like, this is such a sham. It's really ridiculous. I'll talk about it later, but we also have like the disenfranchising of so many people's voting rights.
People that are incarcerated, they lose their right to vote. That does not happen here in Norway. Shout out to Norway. We have hundreds of thousands of people that will never be able to vote again in their lives and be represented in elections because of something that they've done. Ridiculous. So that's crazy. Yeah. That's the baseline for our elections. Second,
The amount of foreign interference we have, AIPAC, you've mentioned, I think a number came out that said that they have now put over $100 million into our US elections, not just like the big presidential, but small ones. We've had people that, particularly black politicians that have been more progressive on Palestine that have called for the bare minimum, a ceasefire.
lose their seats because the AIPAC is so heavily invested in people that were running against them. How that's not considered for interference in elections is ridiculous. This is just very corrupt.
My feelings around the election are, first, again, the system is so messed up. We don't give the opportunity to third parties. We deliberately prevent them from being able to be successful and run in the same ways, from being a part of debates, from limiting the time in which they're able to collect signatures to even get on ballots in states. It's a very limited time frame. But we need to stop with this language of the lesser of two evils. No, we need to stop.
The language, in my opinion, and I'm not making light of domestic violence when I say this, the language that the Democratic Party uses against Democrats in the United States, I find frankly abusive.
It literally is, you will never find anyone better than us. We're the best you're going to get. Oh, you're not going to vote for me? Well, that guy, they're not going to do any good for you. That's abusive. It's fear-mongering language. It's frankly bullying. And that's another thing. People keep telling folks, oh, if you're voting third party, you're wasting your vote. You have to vote for Harris. You have to do that.
You just said this was a democracy. I have to do this? You're going to bully me so I don't have choices in this great democracy? What? So these are a lot of different thoughts I have. I'll try and make it a little more succinct, but
The Democratic Party is really holding hostage a lot of people's votes by, again, using this abusive language of we're the best you're going to get when that is not true, trying to convince us that we don't deserve more. But also by saying things like Harris and Biden in speeches have said things like, well, you know, when you vote for us next time, then we will do this.
You could do that now. You could have protected and put into place protections, or Obama could have put into protections when we had control, when Democrats had control of the House and the Senate and the presidency, protections for Roe v. Wade, protections for women's bodies.
getting rid of student debt. It has been a deliberate choice not to. And what they do is they'll say each election, well, next time I'll do it for you. If you just vote for me one more time, I'll do it next time. That is abusive. That is such manipulation. And I really wish more people would see that Democrats and Republicans are really two sides of the same coin. And I know a lot of people say, well, Renee, like Trump's saying, if you wear a keffiyeh, you'll get kicked out of the country. At least Harris isn't saying that. No, but she's funding the genocide. She's
The difference between Democrats and Republicans, Republicans, yes, they will more blatantly spew direct racism and hatred, but Democrats are also getting money from the same people Republicans are to not make progress on the things majority of Americans want, but then pretending that they care. For example, gun control. The majority of Americans want gun control because of these lobbyist groups. That has not made progress. That's across the board under both governments.
I think a lot of people are treating Harris like it's such progress to have a black and Asian woman president if that is to occur. Having having I think there's a really cool analogy online. It was something like a lot of you. And I'm only saying this for the people on the audio medium. I am a black woman, so I can say that. I think a lot of folks are proving they would be OK with having a slave master if the slave master was black.
What? Representation will not save us. She does not stand for or protect black, brown, or indigenous communities. Her record has shown that. In her speech, she said, we want to make sure we have the most lethal army in the world. She made sure to say that, but maybe mentioned climate once and healthcare once. There was another great tweet. I'm mentioning a lot of good tweets. Someone said, bruh, I don't want the most lethal army in the world. I want to see the doctor. Like, what? Democrats have...
I think some people say they're losing the plot. They have never been with the plot. Like they have they have never actually stood for us. And it is not progress to, you know, Republicans will drop the bombs. They'll probably drop the bombs. Democrats will drop the bombs. The bombs will have BLM stickers on them and the bomb will have pronouns. That's not progress. That's not actually advancing the well-being of our marginalized communities.
So that is my feeling. It's just like touching the surface of things and pretending to do something without actually doing something. Yes. So for me personally, I'm very excited about third parties, particularly Claudia de la Cruz and Karina Garcia. Um,
Yeah, they are running on a platform that is trying to end capitalism before it ends us and have very tangible steps to do that. And I really wish there was an increase in consciousness that we deserve to have options. We do not have to do a lesser of two evils.
Someone said oh if there was you know If we had to vote for Hitler or Hitler times 10, I'm voting for Hitler. What? No We should be questioning why we're voting in a system that we have to choose between two groups that we know are going to harm us Whether one is going to harm us faster or not. They both are leading to our destruction and division as communities We do not have to do this. So that's my thoughts on the election. It's very disappointing. Yeah But what do you think about what?
What do you think about Kamala Harris's position in what's happening in Palestine right now as well? I think she said they're working tirelessly to get a ceasefire. Again, we know that's not true. People are acting like she is different from Biden. No, they're part of the same administration. She is also responsible for the funding of this genocide. We cannot act like...
Also, when they announced the switch from Biden to Harris, so many people blindly start immediately committed to Harris. And I wish people actually used leverage then to say she needs to announce a platform that includes a ceasefire and end to embargoes and stopping the provision of money to Israel and weapons. We could have done that then, but people blindly just went ahead and did that and we lost all leverage. And that goes back to that abusive language I'm talking about.
Democrats know that so many other, the Democratic Party knows that so many Democrats will follow them, vote blue no matter who.
What? And she also held a speech where she said that she will always support Israel in their rights to defend themselves after what happened on the 7th of October. It's shameful. Like, she clearly does not... Well, I think she does know, and they intentionally just don't acknowledge it. But Joe Biden was also quoted in, I think, maybe the 80s, as saying, if Israel did not exist, the U.S. would need to make one. Yeah, yeah. This is...
This is all purely a strategic thing for our interests in the Middle East around power and oil and money. It is nothing else. He's also a very open and proud Zionist. That's true. Which is such a weird thing to be proud of. It's so embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. And yeah, the American people deserve better and we can do better. And it involves ending lobbying. Like, let me give some tangible steps. We need to get rid of our lobbying groups.
We need to move away from the Electoral College because that is providing the over-representation of some voices in states with very small populations compared to others like Wyoming and Washington DC have the same number of electoral votes. Washington DC is much bigger than Wyoming. So we're already not hearing people properly and we need to stop sending money abroad and in
to not just Israel, but destabilizing and interfering in other countries' elections, particularly socialist countries, and economically just strangling them, like Cuba and Venezuela. We need to stop. And we can do this. We often have this narrative that
We don't have enough money. You know, we can't, we have the money. We've been sending it elsewhere. We have the, I have full faith that we have the ingenuity. We have the creativity. We just need to get organized together. Yeah.
Definitely. We'll be sure to post this episode after you get across the border. I was thinking that. My dad was like, what if you go into the prisons and they don't let you out? Oh my God. I still want to talk a little bit more about eco side as well, because I'm very, I'm fascinated by the work and what you do and
So you do the research for ecocide, right? I do research on different environmental hazards. So ecocide is specific because it's like the war crime level. Yeah. So a lot of the research I'm doing isn't at the war crime level. But...
So that's unique to kind of Palestine, although there are other places also experiencing it. But my research is broadly about marginalized groups, environmental hazards they're disproportionately exposed to and how that impacts their health. And then I advocate for policy change or to get resources into communities to change that. Yeah.
I can give another example like in the U.S. if that's helpful. When settlers first came to the U.S., we used to have a population of buffalo of I think around like 30 million. It was amazing. This was a main part of our ecosystem in the Americas. And a lot of indigenous tribes in the U.S., not at the time the U.S., but in the Americas in Turtle Island, were
really dependent on the buffalo for food, for use in a really regenerative fashion. This was understood by the settlers who then said something along the lines of,
kill a buffalo, you kill an Indian. And that there was a deliberate effort to get rid of the buffalo population as a means to kill out indigenous peoples in the US. The population of buffalo today, I believe, is less than 500,000 now. 30 million to 500,000. That's ecocide. This is a tool, again, under white supremacy as part of the...
deliberate wiping out of indigenous peoples and taking over of land it inherently involves the destruction of environments. The treatment of people and planet it's intertwined and we're just seeing that completely be exploited and abused globally. And also like you're killing hope, culture, morale as well because like taking our olive trees is like ripping off a arm.
What is the reason you're in Norway at the moment? Fair question. Why am I here? So I received a scholarship to work on an independent research project. And my project is on incarcerated people, particularly women and their health.
Norway has a very humane rehabilitation oriented carceral system for our audiences that aren't familiar. And it's very effective. It has a 20% recidivism rate, which means that people only go back at a rate of 20% of the population that is released.
In the U.S., we have a punitive carceral system. It stands for basically saying we will treat you so badly that you will not want to commit a crime again. But research shows that this is not effective. We have a recidivism rate of 70%.
people leave U.S. prisons in worse shape than they went in. They are now more isolated. They are more ill. They haven't had job opportunities or learning for sometimes years. And then we expect them to be able to get back on their feet and just become productive members of society. That's just not how it works. So I have come here to learn about a lot of different things. I was interested in the health component. I've been interested in
What kind of society and culture does Norway have to allow for the upstream investment in a rehabilitation-oriented system? Because that requires money. It is expensive, but it actually is less than what we spend in the U.S. because we spend so much money over and over putting people back in and paying more for their bad health care over and over. Versus here, for the most part, it's upstream investment in people, making sure that they become healthy.
better neighbors and then can contribute to society in really fruitful ways that makes a lot of money, not to think like a capitalist, but is productive and learning hobbies and getting skills training.
And I have to say during my time here, I've learned so much. That could be a whole other podcast. I think it's been helpful to be here again to see like the cultural context and the support systems and how Norway at the end of the day is like a social welfare state that has I am very impressed by.
imported services in prison so for example like medical services are part of the like ministry of health it's it's separate from our correctional system your correctional system in the u.s it's like often privatized often under one just like the prison itself and um
It's just not good quality. And often a big difference between Norway and the U.S. is also in the U.S., a lot of people think slavery was abolished. It was not. Slavery in the 13th Amendment can still be allowed in instances of punishment. So in the U.S., we have a unique thing where we're seeing an increase in the criminalization and persecution of marginalized people, homeless people. That was recently declared by the Supreme Court. You can be arrested for being homeless.
to, yeah, to increase our prison populations because they are a cheap labor force. This all comes back to capitalism. A lot of them are performing intensive labor for cents a day. So it's so hard grappling with thinking about these two systems that are so different, exist in different cultural contexts, exist with a more homogenous population than one that is not. But it has been so informative and I'm really excited to go back to the U.S. and
share my learnings and see how we can adapt things that are going well here to there and advocate for the health and well-being of incarcerated people. I have to say, I think some people, maybe the watch list that I'm on, I
on. I'm kidding. But whoever's watching this, I think a lot of people say like, ah, she's not American or she doesn't like America. My ancestors, I'm a descendant of enslaved people in the Americas, of enslaved Africans that were brought to America, built this country. And I'm stuck in it, unfortunately. I spend time away like this. But no, I'm trying to make things better for people because I really care about our communities. And a lot of people don't have choices
So this doesn't come from a place of hate. I think when we really care about institutions, we need to be willing to critique them and push them to grow. I think that's the ultimate way to show care. So anyone hearing this in...
Thinking bad things. I care Including about our populations in the US that are often locked away and forgotten about because at the end of the day I stand for making Prisons obsolete by putting resources into our communities to make them safer. That's what research shows that when we give our communities affordable nutritious food and stable housing and better transit like this is the way that we prevent crime and
better support one another. Wow, you do so much amazing work. That's so sweet! No, really, that's so cool. What is the thing you look most forward to for when Palsam will be free? I love the use of one because it will be free. Honestly, I
I fully support whatever Palestinian folks are feeling and most excited about. It won't be, like, my place to obviously, like... I think a lot of conversations in the U.S. are about...
what should happen next and how should we be celebrating? I'm like, that's not up to us. Whatever y'all want to be doing, I'm riding with and supporting. And I guess in other words, I'm really excited for the self-determination, the sovereignty, for the power that Palestinians will have over their own land.
being able to return to family homes that are so sacred, to growing more olive trees, to doing whatever Palestinian folks want to do, I'm supportive of and very excited for. Amazing.
I just want to pick some olives and good coffee. I support it. I'll give you the basket. I'll carry it for you. Have you been to Palestine before? No. One for three. Well, actually, I don't know how much I should be talking about that. But I might. But we'll see. Yeah.
Maybe, maybe not. Yeah, allegedly, I don't know. No comment. I would be honored and love to. I also think I have hard feelings around what it means to have an American passport and such privilege to get to go when so many people can't. I don't know how that sits with me. But...
I hope one day. Yeah. But if you go, I'm sure you're going for the right reason anyway. You're not going on your birthright trip. I'm actually going to take someone's home. I'm actually going to plant some trees where a sacred village was. Just like, you know, minor things like that. Casual. Oh my gosh. You have the blessings from two Palestinians. Yes.
you know I was thinking about what you said earlier about you know you were brought to America and you were stuck there and I we have a lot of people say not specifically to us but it's like go back to where you came from and I wish someone would say that to me so I could say I'm trying I'm trying to go back everyone else is stopping us but yeah
Last question. What is your favorite thing about the Palestinian or Palestine? That's a really good question. Kind of hard to answer. I mean, I've learned so much. I really think a big part of my...
growth in political consciousness and radicalization, which I mean that in Angela Davis terms of radicalizing, like getting at the roots of things I've learned from Palestinians and Palestinian organizations. So I'm so grateful for that, like sharing of knowledge. But you guys have bomb food. I'll say that too. I'm into the food. And I love, I love to trees. I love how complex it is and beautiful and that it tells stories and you can learn so much from looking at phobes and things like that. So yeah,
I just love Palestine. A rich culture and people that is just so beautiful. And I'm...
I really think that going back to a while ago, I think you mentioned a concern about people forgetting about Palestine or moving on, treating this like a trend. But I fully believe that Palestine is really freeing the global oppressed peoples. And we're not going to go back after this. We're standing on this. We've reached... It's always been bad. I don't want to treat October 7th, again, it was an escalation, but it's always been bad. But we really can't turn back now. We need to stand on creating a new...
a new world, a new way to operate that is truly dedicated to justice. And I'm so grateful for Palestine doing that. Awesome. Yeah, and I'm just saying...
Just going back to that as well, because I think what I was trying to say with the Black Lives Matter movement as well is because it's been happening so much to Palestine as well. You know, we've been bombed, like especially when Gaza has been bombed, you talk about it for two weeks and then people forget and you talk and then another war starts and you talk about it and then you forget. And that's
That's what is so scary because I was also thinking about people wanting to go back to like, when is it going to be normal again? And I'm like, this has always been normal in Palestine. People are getting killed all the time in Palestine. You just haven't been paying attention. And this is the same with black people in America. We can't stop talking about black people in America or anywhere or Palestinians or indigenous people because...
It's happening all the time. And we don't want to go back to normal. Yes, that's my point as well. Like we don't want to go back to normal because this has been the normal. We just haven't brought it up and now this is actually what we need to talk about all the time now. And we will free each other. Yes.
Our normal is violent. It's a violent status quo. And because of that, and because of the people in power that control it, when we have resistance against it that is violent, and it's justified by any means necessary, the UN said this, by resisting your own genocide and occupation, it is justified. It's treated like it's absurd and unreasonable and random, and it's not. So we need to have...
very clear conversations about how poverty is violence. Food insecurity and hunger is violence. Violence against women, violence against LGBTQ plus people, trans people. We live in a violent status quo and we need to combat it by any means necessary. Good final words for this episode. Rene, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure talking with you both. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And as always, free Palestine. Free Palestine.