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9/1/2024

Art as resistance, with Ahmed Tobasi and Vibeke Harper

The episode discusses the importance of art as resistance, featuring Ahmed Tobasi, founder of The Freedom Theatre in Jenin refugee camp, and Vibeke Harper, a Norwegian concept artist. Tobasi shares his experiences growing up under Israeli occupation, including being imprisoned as a teenager, and how art helped him find a way to resist. Harper, who has been working with the Freedom Theatre since 2009, highlights the importance of art as a safe space for humanity and a tool for building community. The episode also discusses the ongoing conflict in Palestine and the need for global solidarity in the face of oppression.

00:06

This episode features Ahmed Toubasi and Vibeke Harper discussing art as resistance against the backdrop of the Palestinian struggles.

05:20

The speaker reflects on their traumatic experiences growing up in Palestine and the misconceptions surrounding the conflict.

09:21

The speaker reflects on the devastation in Jenin, witnessing death and destruction while grappling with the complex blame placed on Palestinians.

12:19

The speech emphasizes that Palestine's struggle is part of a broader global movement against oppression and highlights the power of resistance through creativity.

20:59

Resistance for Palestinians is about creativity and unity through culture and art, not just military actions or protests.

Palestina-pod. Today we were at

Hi, and welcome to the

Transkript

Hi, and welcome to the Palestina-pod. Today we were at a very strong theatre show in Botsparken. It was a collaboration between Nordic Black Theatre, which is based in Greenland, and the Palestinian theatre, The Freedom Theatre. The Freedom Theatre is a theatre and cultural house in Genin refugee camp on the occupied West Bank. They set up professional theatre productions, hold theatre workshops in the refugee camp,

in the city of Jenin and the towns around it, offers learning in acting, pedagogy, photography and publishes books, exhibitions and short films. Since they opened the doors in 2006, they have made theater and visual arts accessible for all children in Jenin refugee camp.

The work has made the new refugee camp known in Palestine and international for news and thought-provoking theatre and media productions. They have created a generation of artists and leaders who one day will stand in the corner for the Palestinian Free Europe movement. And now that The Freedom Theatre has been here in Norway, both in Oslo, Trondheim and a little around Europe as well, we thought we had to talk to the leader of The Freedom Theatre, Ahmed Tobaasi.

Ahmed was born in Jenin refugee camp, and his personal history reflects both the armed and cultural struggle as part of the Palestinians' DNA. After growing up with the violent consequences of the Israeli occupation, the first and second intifadas, the invasion and the down-bullet-dosing of the camp, and after also being shot at, he was politically captured for four years when he was only 17 years old.

After the release, he moved to The Freedom Theatre, where he later lived in Norway, where he worked and trained with the prestigious Nordic Black Theatre in Oslo. He also received a grant from Dramatikerforbundet in Norway.

And we are also fortunate to have with us Vibeke Harper. Don't let me confuse the name, she is a full-blood Palestinian, who is a Norwegian concept artist, author and translator, based in Oslo and Ramallah, Palestine. Her work explores the western identity, its narratives and humor through themes such as land and human rights, power structures and hierarchy.

The Israeli colonial occupation of Palestine and the Norwegian Western colonization of it. There has been a great influence on her life over the last ten years, and something that we, the rest of the world, have awakened to quite a bit over the last ten months.

Vibeke woke up just before everyone else. That's right. Harper is co-artist leader for the art activist collective Motforestillinger, which she runs in collaboration with Marius Kolbønstrøtt in Oslo, and member of the board of directors at Takk's Theatre School. Founded and run by Petra Bargoti, Enda Bargoti, and Eid Aziz Ramallah.

We are sitting here with a lot of impressions from this episode. It is a bit longer than normal, but it is absolutely worth listening to every single word that is said. Art is resistance. That is what both Vibeke and Ahmed show in this episode. So, good luck and fritt på all sin. Fritt på all sin.

Vibeke Harper and Ahmed Toubasi, thank you so much for joining us at Palestine Upholding. Thank you for inviting us. I do want to just say, as we're recording this, the Israeli occupation forces have closed all entrances in the Jenin camp, in what seems to be the worst invasion of Jenin at the moment. So our thoughts go to the people of Jenin, and you're obviously from Jenin as well, visiting Norway.

Ahmed, you grew up in Jenin in the occupied West Bank in Palestine and was held as a political prisoner at the age of 17 until you were 21. Is that correct? Can you tell us a little bit about what life was like at that time and just generally growing up in an occupation?

No, you know, like it is for me when I was a child, I really didn't know what was going on. I see people running. There is army. There is a jail. But I don't know who these people are, why these people are passing my house in the night, why they arrest my father, why they following my neighbor, why they're killing. So for me, a little child watching all of that and

Nobody from my family or my friends told me this is bad people or good people. So then there is no propaganda in the Palestinian culture against this occupation. It's just they try to have a normal life. But that's the thing, like when you grow up, you open your eyes on soldiers. And for me, I was considering them as aliens.

because they're always in this green uniform, coming, following, curfews. And the only memory I have from these people, it's arresting my father, killing my cousin, hitting me as a young little boy playing in the neighborhood. And you grow up until you become 17, and then you see there is a big invasion that the Israeli army wants to invade.

And even the invasion, you see all of what is going on. And in the end, you discover nobody knows what is going on in Palestine.

People talk about peace, about conflict, about all these kinds of words, but actually nobody knows what is going on. And for us as young people, we thought that the world is really following. The world knows what's going on, the media, the TV, the news, but you discover there is a bigger game going on than just us in Palestine. And for me, that was the shock when I first arrived to Europe.

that was the shock. It's like really they have no clue what is going on there in Palestine. And you can compare Palestine to other countries and communities in this world where the West

America, West, Israel, this kind of mind where they can control everything and they can send the focus wherever they want. It's not our choice to be in the media or not. And for sure, the West propaganda made everything cataclysmic.

categorized like a group and it's become like really a frame you are Al Qaeda or you are ISIS or you are Arab or you are Muslims or you are African you are South American and all of that by even you say it you will have already a picture of these people and you will be not really

have any feeling to them or have sorry for them because you already made a propaganda that made controlling your mind how to think and how to react to this kind of names. One of them was Palestinians where we already have been changed to like a picture of terrorism and killing Jewish people, all of that. So it took long time now to come here and we will start to see a different picture.

But that's the problem. You have to pay a very, very big price to make people realize. Yes. Can you tell us about the time in prison? What happened before you went to prison? What happened inside? Which time? When you were 17. Yeah, in 17. You know, it's like I thought we, you know, as a little man, 17 years old, I never have. I saw all these actions, but not real war in a way.

And for me, I thought like it's a cartoon movie, you know, it's like the soldiers will come, we will defend our home and they will go back. That's the thinking. But when I was in the house, a high house, looking to the field, where I start to see like hundreds of jeeps, tanks, helicopters, you see the Mergava 3, it's like when it walks, everything shaking.

And I said, stop, there is something wrong. This is not what we expect. This is not fair. This is coming for us. And that moment where I was really too scared because I saw it's going to be something else. And when I went down, I tried to tell people, but, you know, I was a little boy. So people like, what's wrong with this guy? I tell them they are coming. It's not what we think. And then, you know, the night come.

They entered and I lived the 10 days, 11 days inside the camp. I had to run from house to house, you know, try to find food, save people. I got shot and then there is no...

let's say aid for people many people died just because injured like you cannot go to hospital anyone moves get killed soldiers everywhere no electricity no water and you know in the night i said i sit down between the alleyways and you look at the sky it's like a fireworks as much as you can imagine how many bombs rockets bullets they're shooting all the time and

And, you know, you see your friends get killed. You see houses destroyed. You see bodies hanging there or there. And you look at the whole camp, at the streets bulldozed. And for me, when they catch me, I was thinking like no one is going out alive from what I saw.

And then the Israeli captains come talk to you. Who are you? And that's what I remember. It's like the captain of Jenin area came talk to me because he knew my name. Tupasi is like a family name, which is well known in Jenin. And the Jenin operation was made actually after my cousin had an operation in Haifa.

And he came directly to me and the speech was not a Palestinian-Israeli. He's like telling me, that's your problem in the camp as a people. You should kick these people out.

So it's even become our fault as Palestinians. There is some resistance in the area and we should take them down, not the Israelis. So even they're punishing the people because they're not doing anything against the resistance. And that for me, even in that age, it was a shock. Like how this mind, how the Israeli mind actually thinking, they're believing everyone in this planet should serve them.

Everyone, every country, every culture, it's made to make the Israeli people in the top. And for me, that shows a lot until today. And that's why the world actually, for me, yes, I'm not believing one idea. I'm open to change all the time. But for me now, it's clear it's not a problem between West-East. It's not a problem between Christian, Jewish, Muslims.

is about some people Zionist ideology, mentality, controlling the world, controlling resources, controlling politics.

and sooner or later the problem in this planet will be a class problem. Yes, now it's in Palestine, which is clearly because that's the only example still there as a very obvious colonization, incubation from West, from Zionists, still in Palestine. And that's what I'm trying to tell people. The Palestinian case today is not about Palestine. It's about the whole world. It's about the whole humanity. It's about this planet.

If Palestine will disappear, this planet sooner or later will disappear. If Palestine problem fixed, managed, I promise you it's the magic

for the whole planet, whole communities to become a different place. Because I'm telling you, yes, I am Palestinian, I'm fighting for Palestine, I'm happy and I want to see all the world stand up for Palestine, but there is still a lot of communities around the world having the same issues, even more and longer time of Palestine. And I think through Palestine we also should fight

for these communities and these places and these conflict areas. Kashmir, Yemen, Afghanistan, Africa, wherever you go, still there's places. But, you know, sometimes we think, yes, because we are directly from a West colonization Zionist occupation, that our case is more obvious on the media. Yeah.

It's definitely the impact of what role America plays in it as well, because everything they're involved in, everyone is, they direct their eyes to it.

So I think definitely what you're saying, the liberation of Palestine will liberate everyone else. Yes. It's a global movement. It's just not about Palestine. When I asked you when you went to prison, you said, how many times have you been to prison? I get arrested in 2002, the invasion, the big invasion.

And at that time, I almost got four years in prison as a 17 years old. And yeah, it was a big, a big thing for me. Like you really meet all of this intelligence, intellectual, Palestinian political leaders, wanted people, prisoners where they really like for me, it was a university. Like I didn't went out to university in that time because it was the time to go to exams.

But I went to prison. But for me, it's like, yes, all my friends went to university to study. I don't know what. I went to prison for four years. And it really was for me a university in life, in politics, in seeing things, in thinking.

in seeing the power in individual, the power of the way you think and sometimes even you are wrong but if you believe in what you do, if you believe in what you say, it's become something and I thought it's not about good or right or whatever, it's about what you believe and how much you believe in what you're doing and yeah, when I meet all these people

I cannot even say names because it's really big people, some of them already martyred in big political parties. It's like, you as a little child, you're hearing what they're talking about, about Palestine, occupation, the resistance, how the movement, the liberation movement, all these stories, you don't understand. But when you grow a little bit up and then you start to see the things, how it repeats itself and what they're saying, it's like, yes.

I was happy to be in university in the prison and not in a typical university studying some I don't know what and pay the university money. And yes, that's what is in a way it shaped me somehow. I believe so. But also when I went out, I didn't give up.

to anything was dragging me because you know when I went out it was still Intifada my friends came to me like we want to resist your gun is waiting for you and for me was clearly no I don't want guns because in prison you know I was coming from artistic summer camps activity you know and you know in prison is all men nothing happened

and we try to do life, we try to do activities. And for me, I start to make like artistic activities. Somebody wants to go home, you know, we make a party, I bring some buckets and we make songs. I start to make a small theater group inside the prison that we discuss which sketch we're going to do tonight, which character. And that for sure another experience of which I included in my own monodrama.

It's a story when somebody from Gaza filmed the sketch and next day visit, he gave the SIM card for his fiancee and his fiancee went back to Gaza and they wanted to bring it back to West Bank. But you know, West Bank, Gaza is divided. We cannot, there is no any way to. So the only way was, Abel, they should bring it inside the prison.

and from the prison we sent it through families in the visit to the West Bank. But in that time wasn't really like, you know, Bluetooth or transfer mail. So it was CDs, the big CDs. So they put the CDs in radio and put it inside and they tried to smuggle it inside the prison. But it was obviously a bit big, so the soldiers

The soldiers catch it and then the soldiers brought it to the warden of the prison and the warden of the prison put the CD. For him, in his mentality, like a CD in the prison, that must be something from, you know, soldiers. And he put the CD and he see people dancing, having party inside the prison. And he like, and you know, the tents looks really nice because, you know, it's an army tents from outside, but we bring, you know, everything to make it look home.

Colors, beds, everything looks nice. And the warden was like, what is this? Where is this? And the soldiers tell him, this is here. And he like, is this in my prison? Like he couldn't imagine. He thought there is a party, you know, cameras, CDs, DVDs, like here? And they said yes. And, you know, in the middle of the night, he got crazy. All the soldiers came, start to evacuate us out of the sections.

You talk about a thousand prisoners in one big section. So it was two to four sections in Nakab, in desert. So they took us all and all the soldiers came, they start looking the land, then the mediator, he came and he said they're looking for the guy who making the videos. And for me it's like, oh, it's me. But it was for me like really a shock that what I should do, this is look serious. I didn't imagine it's serious.

But luckily, you know, I put some stuff in my face, some costumes. And at that time, you know, the phone's not really very clear. But for me, that was the question. It's like, what is all of this? Because it's a sketch. And directly, I start to think about my friends who I lost in the invasion. I lost all of them resisting.

And many other people, the destruction of the whole camp, the destruction of all Jenin, the whole case is like, wait guys, the point is not to die. The point is to stay alive as long as you can and you resist and you tell your story. Actually, the easiest thing is to die, to kill yourself or to die or to whatever. But for me, no, it's not about the tool and to die is about the mentality and the way to think when you want to resist.

The word "resist" itself, it means the enemy or the side in front of you cannot have a control on you. The time he has a control, then you are not resisting, you're doing what they want you to do. But resistance, it's you do things that whatever the Israeli occupation cannot imagine. For example, when I start to learn about resistance,

There is a very crazy example, the beginning of the Israelis where they were announcing their state. For example, the Palestinians will come

to their work at 9 o'clock. And the Israeli boss or the one who's responsible will ask you why you come one hour late. And he will tell him, no, I come at the Palestinian time. It's 8 o'clock. So that's resistance. Another example we had, I remember very well in the first intifada, we were putting black flags on our tanks, water tanks. That means we are sad.

And the Israeli, when they see that, means it's like, yeah, they banish us to shoot the water tanks. But still, it's a sign. They cannot go to each house, climb the tank to take the flag, for example, down. The other one, it's, we said the clock,

You know, even for the clock, they start to stop people in the street and check your clock. If your time, it's in the Palestinian time or Israeli time. You see what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Resistance, it's a creation. It's something to create. It's not just something to do and repeat. It's to make you think about new ways and new tactics. That's the... And another example, for example, if you saw the movie of Wanted 18,

It's a very nice, beautiful movie. It talks about Beit Jala because Beit Jala, the community, Beit Jala and Beit Lahem, they decide to be independent of the Israeli incubation products. This is resistance. So they bought 18 cows to bring it to Beit Jala to grow them there so they can have the milk. From milk, they make cheese, make whatever you want, and they will not buy any more Israeli products.

So after time, the Israeli intelligence knew. And for me, you know, the Israeli react not because they're going to destroy them, because they know this is the example.

If it grows, if this kind of culture will be spread around Palestinians, this is resistance and this is liberation, to be independent, even if you have control from occupation. So these 18 cows became wanted. The Israeli army started to follow, looking, searching for the cows.

And the whole Beit Jala, you know, it's become a whole country system. Try to sneak the cows from house to house, hide them there, hide them there. And you know, all the drama of suddenly there is a cow is pregnant, will give birth. And imagine all connection between families, people trying to help this cow with her two, you know, new cows. And it's wow, this is what I call it movement. This is what I call it resistance. People collaborate with each other.

believe in the same value, same way of doing things. And for me, this is resistance. But now we have a bit of challenge. Some people have our military. They take down the value of, for example, resistance through art or resistance through theater, resistance through books, poetry. For me, many people in this world know Palestine through Mahmoud Darwish.

Many people in this world know about Palestine through Edward Said, artists, Ghassan Kanafani, Najir Ali, where they have, yeah, the gun needs a culture, needs an art to save it, to explain, to show why we do that. Because we had a long time of propaganda where the West changed this picture to make it something different. So for me, we should first, as a Palestinian, support each other.

in any way we can resist and not value away on another. So yes, after that, that sketch for me, it was like, oh,

I lost my friends. Yeah, they resist. I resist, but I didn't feel victory. I didn't smell victory. But inside the prison, when I see all of these hundred soldiers angry, crazy, smashing things, blah, blah, blah, I feel victory. I want to do this again. I want to feel this again. And for me, it was clear. I want to be an actor, but fighting through theater and art. I want to feel victory again.

They tried to control our narrative. They tried to close us. They tried to delete our identity. And for me, no, I want to be on the stages telling people the story again and again and again and show them that Palestinians are still human beings because, you know, through this hundred years, they dehumanized us.

the Israelis, the West dehumanized Palestinians, dehumanized Middle East. And for me, it's the time to bring back the humanity to the Palestinians, to Muslims, to Arabs, and show them that we are even more qualified human beings than you. And this is when you joined the Freedom Theater, then after you were in prison. Yes, exactly. After I went out of the prison, it was a big challenge.

You know, like all my friends, what the situation. And, you know, even the community will look at you like come on from a fighter to an actor. It's like we are, you know, all the proudness. But how you can explain is difficult. You need to be a character. You need to be a character as a woman, as a man in this kind of community and situation if you are not brave.

believing enough in what you're doing, it's very difficult. And for me, yeah, it was so clear because if you have any doubt, it's easy, anything take you down. But for me, it was too clear, that's what I want to do and that's what I want to go. And that's why maybe I'm still not married, no children. I have many children around the world as friends, give workshops in Jenin, you know, always in the theater, there is a lot of kids around me, but

Yeah, these things also make you go more strong. You do not think about... I have a good family who really support me. They understand me. I disappear sometimes. Months, two months. But they are really supportive. They try to do whatever to support my work because they know how difficult things I go through. And, you know, I imagine sometimes...

Not that because it looks romantic sometimes when people hear this is like, oh, nice to do that. No, no, it's really it's really very difficult. It costs you energy, time, mentality, money, because people like they never think about, oh, Tubaasi, do you have money?

Like how you live. You see what I mean? So that's also for me, the Palestinian artists. People all around the world, they support the Palestinian artists. They want them to talk. They want to bring them to events. They want them to...

come and talk about what is going on. But okay, the Palestinian artist is a human being. They need money. They need life. They need to be able to continue what they're doing. How are they going to continue what they're doing if they're going to just, okay, talk about Palestine, make music or theater without any support? If you want to support the Palestinian chaos, yes, we got you. It's not only to carry a flag and go outside. It's not only to put a coffee on your leg or in your neck and you go out.

You need to support in a way that it's really strategic. There is art, there is culture, there is education, there is health, there is all of these things that we need to balance and see how we can make it continue. In money, not even in money, you know what I mean. Always money. But push it forward. Yes, yes. Get it out there. But yeah, you need to not take it as what it is.

And that's for me, it's very important because we don't want to be just a trend for now. And that's the problem with this world. It's very fast, very quick.

social media again which controlled by the Zionist in America everybody knows I have nothing to hide or you hide it's very clear who's controlling this world now with the money Facebook, Meta all this social media it's with their hands that's why people cannot see content of Palestine outside that's why people went so emotional in the show because they don't see this in a way all the time they're like oh really yes and for me guys you don't even see nothing

So why you expect Palestinians not be angry and go explode themselves everywhere?

Why you expect us to be a human, modern, and sit on the table and talk about the massacres and the genocide is happening? We should, the most normal thing now, you see the whole world on fire from Arabs and Muslims and Palestinians. But no, we tell you still, we are qualified human beings more than you. We will not react like that.

because just of feelings and we have responsibility. We know we have been 75, 6, 7, 80 years under occupation, the most ugly, violent occupation in this history. But we still react in a way that we are responsible and we fight for humanity, not for Palestinians. And that's very big responsibility. And for me, that's also another problem when the victims of this planet

become fighting each other who's more victim like, you know, when Ukraine start and For us it's complicated. I know that's the politics Ukraine against Russia Russia against America America with Israel Israel against Hamas Hamas with Iran Iran with Russia Russia with Hamas Hamas against Israel Israel with Ukraine so Ukrainian hate Palestinian now because we took the focus from

from them on the social media. And I say, no, as a Palestinian, I'm not, I'm against the war in Ukraine. I'm against the artists being prisoned in Russia. I'm against the artists or the women in Africa being killed because of asking for freedom. We should be together. We cannot fight Palestinians, Ukrainians, who's more victim. We all, we both getting bombed, killed like this. We should stand together. Mm.

not go to Israel or to Russia to get support against each other. So it's very tricky. And these people know how always to make things fall down. And the only thing always...

Same strategy, divide and rule. That's the oppressor, that's the occupation, that's the, for me, white colonization mentality. Always come in, divide and rule. All the world. If you look at it, not even, forget Africa, forget Asia, forget other countries. We come to Europe, East Europe, West Europe.

where you want we go to the west europe there is inside the countries poor people rich people there is people able to do things there's people not able to do things in norway you find poor people and rich people yes the system is nice for everyone but still a lot of issues

as a class. So now the problem is really dividing people who deserve to be alive or not, which is very serious. I think that we all need to come together. We all need to come together and finish. And for me, people, you know, always feeling not good when I say, yes, I'm courageous enough to say I don't care about the name of the land.

Yes, it's not easy because we all fight for Palestine, for the Palestinian flag, for the Palestinian Kufa. But for me, my dream is to take down all the flags from this planet, to take all these borders, to talk all these names. Why should you have a Norwegian passport that you can travel all over the world and I cannot move inside my country? Who gave you the right?

to teach us how humans should be? Who gave you the right as a Westerner to teach us how to deal with women? Who gave you the right to teach us how to deal with children? It's our tradition. I'm not saying it's wrong or right. I'm saying it's our decision.

Who tell you come to teach me how to elect my president? I never even elected my president because you elected for us. So it is serious now. I think the major problem, what is going on, especially with the Western people, they are Gaza made them face their values, make them face their lies and make them face that

sooner or later, it comes to you in Europe, in US, it will come to you.

And for us, we know time is time. Things take time. That's what we say in Norway. Think tartide. Think tartide and it will come to you. For me, Ukraine is not far away. It's just here. And what is going on now in France with politics, with right, with left, with all of this. And again, U.S. used Europe. For me, it's not used Europe. U.S. raped Europe.

hard to the way now Europeans start to realize we are not in the same position anymore. And for me, all of that because of Gaza. Gaza and Palestinians stood enough, resist enough,

to show the world that's what is going on. And yes, we paid a big price. I am proud of everyone who, whatever they did to bring this world now to this point. And yes, I think we are in a very critical time in what is going on. Now we talk about Hezbollah, Iran. And for me, yes, I'm proud of the Norwegian people, at least to admit, like, yes,

We should not forget Norway was a part of the Oslo Agreement which has destroyed us until now because what is going on now is because of Oslo Agreement. Not to put the Norwegian in a big responsibility but

Everyone in this world should know this occupation you cannot make deals with. They cannot make agreements. They cannot commit to any official agreement or a word. They are just liars. They are people who believe they can do whatever they want and no one can ask them stop or why. You see today, I mean, I am really, I swear to God, I think about the humanity more. Like what happened to us?

That we can kill each other in this way. Really, really. I can't be a bad person. I can steal some money. I can steal food. If I feel I don't know what I do, I want to have a bicycle. I don't have bicycle. It's like I steal bicycle. I understand. This is a human needs, let's say. But to kill thousands of people for what?

Why? How? How bad will become as a human being equality? Look at the world, war everywhere. And I'm not talking about humanity because I believe there is

A group of people behind the scenes, they're planning all of this. And we all should stand up and stop them. You talk about, Hiroshima was not social media and internet. We talk about massacres in Africa, it was, yeah, no cameras, no technology to document that massacres and genocides happened in Asia and Africa. But today, the genocide online, people see what is going on from 10 months

And if you look at Gaza, OK, show me the military guys you killed. You're bombing schools, you're bombing hospitals. This has never happened in history. And I don't know people, what should happen to make you feel this should stop now. Like, I really don't, I'm just thinking sometimes, even for myself, like, OK, let's make the war finish.

Now almost we are 40,000 and I'm sure there is another 40,000 under the rubble, disappear. I'm sure, I'm sure. But I mean, like 2 million people displaced. Some of them at least moved 11 times. There is families are not anymore on the documentation.

Like you build those the street electricity water oxygen you control the air you control the sky you control us You control the land like what controlling what what you what you need more makes you stop and that's the serious question for everyone like What we are living for? For what we doing and that's the problem if we become just a machines and our dreams is to have a place to live and

As a human being, I think we should raise our values. Everyone, every child, every individual in this earth should live in dignity, grow up in dignity, grow up in peace, have the right to learn, have the right to have access to health, whatever, medical, and that's

basic rights for every person on this planet and not make it Europe you can I don't know what and Africa not no no no no it's enough and I think I think

I hope this war will... I believe what is after 7th October is not like before 7th October. But I believe we're really not becoming machines and next trend will come and then we move to next trend and we forget what we are fighting for. And for me, it's very important to keep reminding people this will not stop. It's a long...

history war will go as the future between human being and people who try to make more money and being in a different class. Yeah, I completely agree. What you're saying now is also what we're doing or what you're doing through the Freedom Theatre because you were talking about resistance earlier as well and this is not

Again, I've been thinking a lot about it. Like one thing is that we have been talking about it for 10 months in Norway, which I think is really good. Like, you know, the demonstrations go a bit down. There's not as many people there were in December, but still people are talking about it. But also not making, you know, sometimes you think, when is it going to go back to normal? People get sick of it. And you're like, this is this has always been the normal in Palestine. Maybe not now.

the extent of the genocide that's happening now, but this is the normal of Palestine. You just haven't been told about it. But I want to ask you also how...

How does the freedom theater work? Because there are so many ways of resistance, you know, that has been also in Palestine and around the world. And I think, I believe that art is a true form of resistance. I think it's important, something that I

hope to do as well. How do you work in the Freedom Theatre? Tell us a little bit about the theatre. Yeah, and I say again, when we talk about the theatre, it really looks like a romantic, nice place where people can do their stuff and everything is okay. No, but you know, the Freedom Theatre, it's in the middle of Jenin Camp.

we really live and have the same experience what the camp have. Like each invasion, each attack, the Freedom Theatre has a part of this. Those times, you know, they always enter the theatre, destroy it, destroy the offices. They bomb it, they bulldozed it before. And the building of the theatre as a venue, it's really all buildings. So there's cracks in the ceiling where we see sooner or later will fall down.

But yeah, many members were in prison. We talk about now the producer, Mustafa Shita, is also in prison.

I was also the same time when they took us. They took me, Mustafa and Jamal Abdujoz, an actor from the Freedom Theater, and they took us to prison. The only thing that made them is my Norwegian passport. When my friends start to call people here and the ministry called, like, why you take this guy? And if nobody called, they have no problem to put me with these thousands of people. But yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, when you...

Not just talking about it, you live in it.

You leave that, you could be arrested. You leave your work that could put you in prison. Your work can make you shot. Your work, maybe they will enter the theater while you are in there, you know, and they know who's working in the theater or not. So, yes, it is danger to work in theater. And art is not just only something nice. It's not something safe. The theater could kill you. And that's what happened with our first artistic film,

director Juliano Merhamiz, he got killed in front of the theater. Eight bullets in his heart. You imagine. Yeah, so theater can kill you if you do it for a reason. So yes, it is even, you know, as also a theater idea, you know, still people think about it. It's not necessary to do theater in this situation.

People believe like we have war like why you want to do theater and bring artists and that other challenge to make it more difficult because if you have your people support you can Go wherever you want and for me, that's the idea. I try to make Theater part of what is going on. We are part of the reality So why you don't want me to react last time we had

12 martyrs and we had an opening and I decided I want to open the play today because we want to talk about it in this situation as we are part and theater should be part of the daily life of what is going on. It wasn't easy. The board were fighting with me like, no, we should respect. I understand them and then I said, okay, but no, my, my,

My vision is to make theater culture as part of everyday life in Palestine. We talk, we do theater, but not do theater about I don't know what. We do theater about our life, resisting, talking, and in every way possible. You know, the Israelis, they did documentaries from 20s.

about Palestine to show it as an empty land. They do theater, talk about a child in a settlement cannot sleep the night because maybe Hamas guy will send a rocket. I promise you it was

They used everything. They stole our kufiya. You know, they put kufiya in their tradition. And the thawb also. They made a catwalk in Tel Aviv with our tradition. You see how ugly they are. They are not about biting land or taking a mountain. No, no, no, no. They want to delete you. Even they will take you as them. You know what I mean? So, hummus, you go to India.

India, any restaurant. Israeli hummus.

Israeli tabbouleh why for sure because all the soldiers who do the military service and they get fucked up. They have to go to India smoke hash to forget to relax what they did in Gaza and with hate to do so. Yeah, I mean So they used everything to attack you culture theater attacks movies documentaries films, so I think it's simple

our rights to fight in any way back possible. I want to use theater. Somebody want to use sewing. Somebody want to make film. And that's what I believe. Not make one thing better than the other. That's simply what the Israelis do. They attack us, occupy us in every way possible. But yeah, for me, it is hard for the Palestinian artists

for the Palestinian intellectuals to talk about and include their work as a resistance because for me there are some close small minds who think that things should be in one way and that makes it difficult but that's what I'm asking Palestinians normal community that please give young people give artists their space to express

and to send, to achieve the world about what we do. That's probably also why they get so angry when you do cultural stuff or the chaos even, the example with the chaos, because you don't know how to, you know how to attack a Palestinian, but you don't know how to resist the resistance. You have to

When you attack them with creativity, they don't know how to react back at you. They get surprised. How do we handle this? I mean, imagine they shoot you in the state because you're doing theater. What more example than this? If you arrest... We did a project called The Revolution of Promise.

and it's about a Palestinian artist in West Bank who they have problems because of their own work, nothing more. One of them is Darin Tatur, is a poem from '48. She wrote a small poem in the Facebook. Two hours they erased her. And for me, like even a Palestinian, I didn't know, not many Palestinians knows about the Palestinian artist's struggle. And even me, I'm like, what?

Yes, she got arrested three months first and then she went to prison. They put her two years under house arrest so she cannot leave because of a boy.

Other photographer get shot in his eye because he was filming what is going on. Muhammad Bakri is a very well-known artist in Palestine. He went to court for 15 years about film documentary Janine Janine. 15 years in court. And in the end, they have to pay 100, almost 50,000 shekel for the soldier. He was in the bulldozer that he didn't took his permission to put him in the movie.

So, and many, Mohammed Abusakha, who is a Palestinian circus school in prison. Mohammed Sabaani, a very famous Palestinian caricature in prison because he's caricature. And many, many examples. And no one from, not no one, not many as a Palestinian know this. And this is another cultural resistance for me. Because yes, cultural resistance outside against the occupation.

and cultural resistance inside the community of Palestine because we have some stupid people. We have some fucked up crazy people who do not still ready to be open and to accept differences. We are in Palestine different. There's different individuals, different people who have different way of thinking. You cannot shoot me because I don't think like you. So for me, resistance

It should be all the way because I believe incubation have many layers in our life. You talk about 75, 80 years now, for sure they know how, like if you open Facebook, you see how they want you to think. You see how, what they want you to see. And still people not really aware of this kind of social medias can control our thoughts where to go.

and you tell people around you, your community, we should help each other. We have a very strong occupation, not easy one. We have to support, we have to come together. Accept me as different than you and then we talk about these differences between us. But we have one mission, freedom, liberation. And then, you know, like some people tell me when you go around, oh, but you want Hamas to control.

I like...

It's not your problem. It's not your problem Hamas control me or not or Jihad Islami or Fatah. This is Palestinians. When we are free, we sit and this is my mission to continue fight for my freedom. But it's not your problem. Did I come to your country and ask you which party will control you? No. We never went to any place to tell them what is wrong, what is right. But that's what we want. We want people to respect us.

what we're asking for. They respect what we are thinking for. We are different. We are again, you know, we are divided enough through all this time to come together. And for me, this is the point. We want to come together. And then, yeah, Gaza brought us together. We lost a lot, but Gaza brought us together. But still, always after revolution, it's very easy to go down. It's very easy to be led down.

to other direction. And that's what I noticed from the second Intifada. It's 20 something years. And I saw how proud we were in the Intifada. But after the invasions finished, you see the propagandas, how easy the fingers can enter, put some money there, there, there, and drag all the tension.

to something side than where we were going. So not because we are bad, no, because there's agendas in the floor. There is occupation, there's agendas, there is waste. They know how to take success down and make it nothing. And that's what the Israelis do now to show us like resistance will bring you destruction. Resistance will bring you back 20 years. And for me, there is no difference from now what I see scenes from Janine Kamm, now with the invasion,

It's the same scenes from 2002. And I promise you, before even we come here, when they attacked, I was just in the road of the theater standing in front of my house. And just, you know, the vehicles, vroom, vroom, it was special forces attacking somebody. And I, this was 20 years. And just one button, they brought us back. 20 years back, and the same thing. And that's what they want to say. Don't think you can live normal under occupation. You as a Palestinian, that's your life.

And you have one choice to leave. You don't leave. That's the way you're going to live. You, your generation, your children. And we can bring you back whenever we want. And that's what they want to say. But yeah, I think we as a Palestinian, we don't have much choices. We have only one choice.

to go forward, to resist. And yes, it's now we feel proud, we are trend in the world. And this really makes you really like, for me, because I told you when I came to Europe for first time, I thought like everybody knows Palestine. Now they're going to ask me about Palestine because we are the only country having a war.

No, people busy with their boyfriend, girlfriend, about the team, football, they lost 2-0, what is the payment for the apartment, the internet. All of this is happening and nobody knows. And even you tell people, they ask where are you from, you tell them, I'm from Palestine. And they're like, Pakistan. And I'm like, what? I really like to say it because I thought it was a joke. But it's not a joke. It happens until today.

So it was a big shock for me that people really don't know, not don't know, they don't want even to know. Like there's a conflict there, we are bored of it, I don't know what. But now today, they like it or not, everyone look at you and ashamed. They cannot say anything. Kufiya everywhere, Palestinian flag everywhere. You go anywhere and you find a balcony with a Palestinian flag everywhere.

That's part of the strategy as well, right? Divide and conquer to keep people distracted from tapping into their humanity. Yes, exactly. I want to ask you, Rebecca, also, you started working with the Freedom Theatre in 2009, right? First time I visited. Yeah. How did that begin and how has it evolved throughout the years? From the first visit, it was more me...

traveling and touring throughout Palestine to really educate myself on what was happening. Because when you come from Norway, as I do, I grew up in a very different setting than Ahmed. I'm from the white majority society in Norway and very protected in many sense.

So coming to Palestine, it was a shock, even though I grew up in a family that was very political. I had the Kofia over me while I was a baby, you know, so my parents raised me well politically. But you don't know until you are there and see and feel and smell and, you know. So the first time I was there in Palestine was in 2008 with the Palestinian Committee Solidarity Trip.

And what I saw during those two weeks was shocking to me. It was not too long ago since the Second Intifada, and things have changed so much for the past 16 years or so. So when I went back there, I had to go back, basically, because between the first visit and the second visit, when I also visited the film theatre, you had the Christmas war, or the attack on Gaza during 2008 and 2009.

And it became personal to me, right? Because I had already gotten people I knew in Palestine. I had to go back. So I went back in February and stayed for three months. In 2009? Yeah. February, March and April. So all over West Bank, getting to know a lot of people, learning a lot, crying a lot, being comforted a lot by Palestinians, which is always, you know,

I'm not used to it, or I wasn't used to it, which I should be ashamed, really. As Ahmed mentioned also, the one who's comforting everybody is the Palestinians. Where do I get my strength from? It's from Palestine. It's from my Palestinian friends. And that has continued since then. But visiting the Freedom Theatre was powerful because, again, for me, art is the safe space.

where we can be humans, where we don't have these labels, where we don't have these characteristics or whatever. You're just a human being and we are all in it together and we can create something. It's creating something. War just destroys everything or the political scene. I don't believe in politicians anymore because it's lies and it's games and it's

agendas and positioning in front of each other and everybody wants something in art we are humans we are creating something we are having fun we are building up we are you know

or dealing with stuff like the performance now in the park. That's the way to deal and handle. I just want to say quickly for those who don't know about the play, it's a Freedom Theatre and Nordic Black who have collaborated. They had two shows on Sunday at Bottspark Grönland at 1:00 and 5:00, which we watched. It was a really strong performance.

The project actually, I mean the reasons why, one of the reasons why the Freedom Theatre is here now is with Kallstøy Festival and also Protonix and Trupanen Teater in Trondheim. So we have a collaboration, a long list of collaborating partners. So the performance was also shown in Trondheim and it started working with it in Kallstøy. So the whole tour, but it culminated in the two performances on Sunday here in Oslo.

Yes. So, yeah, no, but from my relationship with the Freedom Theatre, first time I visited there was in 2009, came back again in 2010. Then I did a workshop with some drawings, with some kits, together with a British friend of mine, actually, who was working with...

an NGO which I don't remember the name of now this is so long so long time ago but anyway it's a short one but then I've been working with a lot of other artists in Palestine so I'm not

solely faithful to the freedom theatre although I love them deeply it's a good point because we really as a freedom theatre we believe in idea more than as you say like resistance it's an idea it's not me or her or she that's the idea of the freedom theatre where you like we

We have friends all over the world who care about us, who support us, and they are the Freedom Theatre. So we don't have a card to give to people you are a Freedom Theatre or not. We believe in the idea for me as... The community. Vibica is one of the friends who believe in us. Very much so. And last year, in 2023, we had finally a proper collaboration here in Oslo where we had the performance that Ahmed mentioned, Revolution's Promise. Yes.

Ahmed was here playing himself in that performance. And we also had Rania Elias, who is a woman, a cultural worker living in East Jerusalem, and had also invited Ali Abiyassin, an artist from Gaza. But he was not granted a visa to Norway at that time.

which pissed us off so much that we invited him to come this year. Unfortunately, again, he was not allowed to come. He's still stuck in Gaza. But the Freedom Theatre, I visited there in June now, last time, together with Kyri Hellum and Khalid Mahamoud. We have collected some equipment for the theatre in Jenin.

And it was donated by the Norwegian Theatre and the Norwegian Opera and Ballet House. It was picked up from the theatres here in Oslo, put into a big container in April. And we thought, yes, now it's sailing towards Junín and we're going there in June and

offloading you know because you sent it in yeah in April right it's still stuck in Oslo it's still stuck in Oslo we are still waiting for green light from the expenditure oh my god it's a nightmare but anyway I want to say about coming to Janine because I saw the theater first time in 2009 and I saw the Vibers and that was at

time when Juliano Mercamis, who was killed in 2011, he was still alive. It was a vibe and the other founder, Zacharias Ubeidi, who was also arrested the same year, a bit later, he's in prison. So this is the two founders of this theater.

One was killed, the other one is lifetime in prison. And the daily manager, Mustafa Shetta, the producer, was arrested and is still, after now since 13th of December, he's still in administrative detention without any compensation.

accusations against him without any trial, without any ability or being allowed to defend himself. And he's one of many. I think it's now 11. How many administrative defensions? I think it was the last number. So it was 7,000 Palestinians in prison without any accusations against them, without a trial, without anything. And it can be indefinitely. Mustafa was given six months initially and then a new one for four months.

you know, and they can do this without anything. So there is a call for his immediate release. We did a call earlier when someone else from the Freedom Theatre was arrested. We handed this call. All of the Norwegian performing arts fields signed this petition for freeing Palestinian artists in prison in administrative detention. We handed that petition over to the

the culture department and the foreign department. They promised they will look at it and promised to bring it up with their Israeli...

Is it like when America says Israel are going to investigate themselves? Yeah, for sure they will. No, but not after they kicked the Norwegian representative from Israel. We don't like Norwegian anymore. And you notice that, actually. All the money, all the oil, all the guns from Norway. Even though you are not good enough. It's very... You can feel the aggression. But now, the theater now...

To come there now, I broke down actually. I mean, it was different coming back. It was a year ago since I was in Palestine last time and in June coming back, new system. The buses doesn't run into the West Bank. You have to walk through the checkpoint from Jerusalem to Ramallah. More armed checkpoints. Things doesn't work the way it did a year ago. So the landscape, the fabric of the society is changing.

So we took the bus. We're going, me, Kirja and Halid, we're going to Janine to visit. Sadly, he was away on tour. Or good, he was away on tour, showing his performance. And here I am, which is an excellent place. So we were going to Janine to visit. And I got a message from the current interim general manager early in the morning. So Stana Svei, don't leave.

Ramallah just yet because we have some news that there might be an invasion special ops are on the way so wait a little bit before you take the bus and we waited three hours later five people were shot six people arrested and they had driven around with a wounded man on the on their jeep which I knew I know this rich news here right yeah so that was that day we went to Jenin so when I got message that they had left we took the bus and

came to Jenin in the afternoon and for me I love Jenin, I love Palestine. It's like coming home to me, even though it's you know it's home. So coming there, going towards the camp, I was looking for the arch which around any refugee camp you have this arch or this gate

And I couldn't find it. You know, it was... Where is it? So am I taking these guys? And I felt almost embarrassed because Halle and Kirill was, you know, first time. I'm the one who knows my way around. And then I couldn't recognize myself. I was like, what...

And there's no, I mean, the asphalt is gone. And, you know, it was... The front place. Completely devastating. Coming into the, just inside the camp, the theater is not too far from the entrance to the camp. And then seeing there, it's dust everywhere. It's the buildings are torn down. And the broken, the windows on the theater are broken. The doors are broken. It's just...

It's happening. And of course, there's drone bombing. There's craters after drones. And like Ahmed explained, which he himself has been present where they drive past with these huge trucks who messes up the streets, who tears down the walls, you know. So my deep, deep concern, or it's not even a concern, because when they have finished in Gaza, as they say,

They will start in the West Bank. Well, they have already started. Now there's been drone bombings in Tulkarem and Jenin this night. I mean, there's nine people killed. All over the West Bank there's an invasion. And not to mention on the way to Jenin, all the settlements and the outposts. The first time I took the bus, the settlements was over there. And I remember once in 2018 when I took the bus, the settlements were here.

And we were driving, I was in a service with only Palestinians, and we were driving through this corridor of Israeli flags. And we were listening to the radio, Arabic music, and then Israeli radio kind of took over the channel. And the driver was fanatically kind of looking for the Arabic station, couldn't find it. So we drove through, it turned it off, so we drove through this corridor of Israeli flags.

in complete silence and that feeling inside that car with 10 Palestinians and me it was just the saddest thing and now even more fresh colonies all over north of Palestine which is the fertile land which is where you produce food you see you know

On the opposite side, I went to Hebron, where it's more dry land. You have different issues there. You have in every region of West Bank, and in East Jerusalem, and in 48, and in Gaza, and in the camps outside. You know, the fragmentation of the identity, as Ahmed spoke about. It's a very powerful divide and conquer. But now, finally, because...

We had kind of the same sense in 21 with the so-called knife intifada where people got together and accepted and trusted each other. It's a trust issue, right? This...

But you know, as what you talked about, because this is not from 7th October, which is really something we need to talk about. And I was telling people like, this is happening every day. And I remember I was in France, in Paris, and we had a big meeting, conference with activists, people who are interested in the case. And they asked me like, what do you think should happen? I said,

No, but every day there is four, four, 10 people, 11 people. Destruction is the same all the time, all the time. I think that something should happen. Like maybe the Israelis need to get more a bit violent. Maybe they need to do a massacre. So people start to really realize there's something that to stop.

But I couldn't imagine for sure, like these people, they could be out of your expectation. They always manage to surprise you. They manage to show you something far away than you think. And that's the solution. Like when they did 7th of October, that's the only way all the world have to look to Palestine and say, OK, come on, enough. We need to find a solution. But still.

And every night I did a count during one week during nightly raids in the West Bank. And this was not now, this was a year ago I did this count.

How many people were arrested during night raids? It was 239. And that was before 7th of October. So you're talking about it started the war 7th of October. No, it didn't. As we know, it began in 48, first of all. And it has been a slow, slow, slow way all the way. More or less slow, actually.

Sometimes it blows up. But the thing with Israel, I mean, they murdered the first UN diplomat, Folke Bernadotte. They shot and killed him on the streets in Jerusalem when he was handing over their report. And this man was Folke Bernadotte, the count who saved masses of lives from Auschwitz camps. He was the man behind the white buses. The Zionist government was not agreeing with, or the Zionist leaders were not agreeing with his report.

a righteous plan or the plan of division where Palestinians actually get their land. They didn't accept it so they killed them. Nothing, no trial, nothing. So any of these, there's been masses of UN resolutions since day one. I mean, there's a museum in Ramallah

walking you through all these resolutions you know it's a in Arafat museum you can go through all this spiral of all these resolutions not one of them do they care about so there's

But no, but that's what we see continuously, that whenever someone comes with a solution, they kill it off. For sure. They kill everyone that's trying to do something. Even though the Oslo Accords were not good, they still killed Yistek Rabin. It was Rabin, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah.

They killed him and his own people killed him because they were trying to find a solution Yeah, but that's that's how you have to improve how you are an Israeli. Yeah, to be honest as our work there is some Israelis who think they are against occupation or they are left side whatever and

And sometimes they try to get in contact, but we tell them it's not easy. Guys, don't think it's like tomorrow you are a good Israeli and then we have to collaborate and normalize. Sorry, do your work alone. I do my work alone, but we cannot come together. Sorry. But they are, you know, feeling... I met a very famous...

dance choreographer in Portugal He have a big dance company and he made a project about how the Israeli kids growing up in a violent

situation which is not good for the community. He's not talking about Palestine. He's not talking about anything. He's talking about the Israeli children growing up not in a healthy situation which is not good for the Israeli community. And he talked about part of the show, talked about the children settlers.

In Hebron, in Jericho, in the West Bank. And you see like children 12 years old, 11 years old, drunk or underdob. They're having guns, shooting at the Palestinians, kicking their houses. And he brings this kind of thing that shows that these children will grow. They will be violent in our community. So they cut everything about him.

They attacked him. They told him you're not supporting us. You are against Israel. He's been attacked in any different way you can think. And then he had to leave to France. He cannot exist anymore there. And I watched many examples like that. Any Israeli would say, stop, let's think. This is occupation. We need to leave.

you are not Israeli anymore. So for sure there is no place for any individual Israeli to be not 100% violent, crazy, kill Palestinians. So now your Israeli ID can go up and down of mentioning what you did against Palestinians. If you killed three, four, ten people, you are a hero. Not then you are a normal whatever. So yes, you cannot even

there is no freedom in this kind of state.

There is no rights for people in this kind of state. And before 7th of October, you saw what Netanyahu was planning to do. It's to take control of dictatorship. And they promote themselves as the Western values, only a democracy country in the Middle East, which is in their dreams. But yeah, I think that's another problem now with the Israeli, what is happening, what is going on.

is they also face the facing reality of they who are. Now we talk about hundreds of soldiers having mental issues when they go back after trauma, whatever they call it. The people they cannot face, there is people dying in Gaza. They cannot admit it. The moment they admit it, they will have issues. And what I'm telling you, if you go to Tel Aviv before 7th of October,

You go to Tel Aviv, you find activist people, activist rights for human rights, for women, for dogs, for trees, for oxygen, for gay people, for environment, for global warming. And when you ask them, what about the people behind the wall that you see and they are really not living in a good way? They cannot see it. They cannot discuss with you.

Because the moment they will see us as a human being, they will have issues. And that's the problem. You promote yourself as a first style modern country, and then you are really not a country at all. There is very religious, crazy people. Now we talk about Ibn Ghafir. He's planning to build these things for Jewish

religion thing in Al-Aqsa mosque. It's like, what's more provocative? Where do you want to go? And for me, actually, they're making their fall

faster from corona time corona all this is happening russia us you know chinese all these cases connecting on each other and somehow and i believe that europe and us is not they don't enter war because they don't want war because they realize that everything is changing and they are not in the same positions like before and i promise you if they had

the chance, they will delete Iran, they will delete Russia, they will delete China. But they now know we cannot do anything because it's very tricky and we could lose control. That's why they're still not joining the war. But yeah, I think, inshallah, they're making the end faster. It's self-destructing. I want to talk a little bit more about...

It's it is interesting. We've so we've invited you here to talk about It's really interesting because you know, we want to talk about art and we want to talk about the resistance But you see how much they intertwine together. No, but it's very important People try to tell to ask me like how we can make art political or what is political? Guys, come on. You cannot be

I'm political. And the time you start to say I am not political, you are political because you are dividing to not address some issues which is politically you meant to do that. Which means that you are also in another side. That means you are a political. So for me, never, never, never. Art, video, theater, songs, music,

It born a political. And you cannot, also what's happening now, reacting or responding, we were discussing this earlier, what art and activism. I mean, as a human being, who are you if you don't react when there's an ongoing genocide and more of an ongoing occupation? I mean, who are you then? Who are we as individuals? Who are we as a

collective society who are we it's not for me about activism or about art or about any of these labels it's about trying to survive as human beings and saving our soul I mean but of course for me also as as using art as a tool yeah that's what we do because that's where we are I mean or and also like back to the performance we mentioned the students had here on Sunday and

It's a way to deal with it yourself as an artist, but it's also a way for the audience to deal with it and be able to receive it. Because the pictures and images coming from Gaza, for instance, even though if you see them, I mean, the algorithms, yes, it closes off and many people don't see and you can run away. But if you watch these videos coming from Gaza with these headless babies, with, you know...

how to deal with that it's too much I have found myself become numb I'm I have I'm no tears left you know there's what to feel I don't know what to feel I don't know what to say I don't know how to when my friends in Gaza Ali Abiyassin who is a performing artist what to say to him I'm ashamed and say hang in there what am I supposed to say you know and I'm

I'm ashamed that we haven't stopped it. And I'm ashamed I can't do more. I'm ashamed that I can't stop it. I feel personally responsible to stop this. You know, so art is the one place

where we can breathe together and do something that makes sense because the world does not make sense any longer. But you know, also in the attacks of the freedom theater, I got, you know, some emails, calls, messages, artists, companies in the world. Okay, what we can do? How we can help you is like,

There is difference between you want really to do something you believe in it or you just want to take something from your shoulder And I think people mix in it sometimes they didn't know what the difference Because some people really feel they need to do something make them feel good about themselves Which is this is we understand it doesn't help a lot But there is many people who really want to do something and for me it reminds me is like

I was once in Hebron, you know, in the old town where it's occupied soldiers, many settlers who study there, very religious. And one time I went with two Norwegian people and that time I had my passport with me. So I said, OK, I will try to enter this area, which is not allowed for Palestinians. And I was really shaking. I entered with them and showed them the

area and was the first time in my life I entered this area. I was many times come with many groups, people show them, they go in, I wear them outside because it's really a school for the religious people, soldiers and suddenly I'm there.

And then a soldier comes, "Hey, how are you? Where are you from?" "It's UK, Norway." "Oh, nice. Guys, how are you? Don't worry. This is for the bad guys. Don't worry. It's not about you. But we are trying to save our children, blah, blah, blah." And look how he talked to me. Like, if he just asked me, "Give me your ID," I would be, you know. And like, I'm shocked how he's lying. And he believes his lie. He tells people, "We have these guns, these things to save from bad people, but you are safe. You can go around."

And I continue like seeing and a small settler boy, he want to get a cola from the machine, but he's too short to put the thing. And he asked for help.

I didn't know why I went to him. I helped him He bought the shake and cola and I didn't thought about it at all and he gone Thank you and really fun nice two boys They gone and for me I started think like what why I helped him and I start to challenge myself like what happened to me but

For me, no, that means I'm still a human. I'm still normal. I didn't deal with kid as my enemy. He, when he grow up, he could be a soldier. I don't know. But that's at least for myself. I'm still function as a human. The good side is still with me, which was a good sign for me. And that's for me that always saying to people, yeah, we should, we should,

make a difference between civil people, army, leaders, all of that, because we cannot include everyone all the time.

in the same circle to create more enemies. But you know, for me, people to go more direct to the point, we have Jewish friends all over the world who they are really our supporters. They really believe in what we're asking for. And as I said, and Giuliano said, the third intifada should be a cultural, artistic intifada. I believe the fourth intifada will be a Jewish intifada.

that Jewish people need to stand up, need to stand up for their heritage being used and told to be used in this way. Now we see some examples from young Jewish people around the world. They have used

being used as a religion, as a heritage to promote this ugly occupation. And I say, yes, we need more Jewish people to stand up for their rights, for their heritage. And I believe Jewish people are human beings like us. They are against what is going on, but we need their voices more and more.

Because when you are Arab and Palestinian and you say this against Israel, for sure they will tell you, yes, they are Arab and Muslims. But when a Jewish man or a woman stands up,

You accuse them of what? But also this is the result of Israel because Israel is not labeling their inhabitants as Israeli. They're calling them Jews, Jews, Jews and Arabs, Arabs. It's the labeling that Israel definitely cynically using. But you have Jewish voices for peace in the USA who's growing and you have also in Norway Norwegian Jews for peace. And in Germany, it was just recently in Germany back to what's happening in Europe.

pro-Palestinian activists are being beat up and it's now illegal to say from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. I was outside the courtroom when there was a trial and there's thousands of trials in Berlin against activists. And who are the activists? Many Germans, some from the Palestinian diaspora, who are now in effect

banned from grieving because many have families in Gaza and the ongoing genocide affects them in the way that their grief of their losses is not only not allowed it's criminalized

So there's not space for more than one genocide then. Is there not, is it a competition? Is it, can we be a human collective, borderless, without all these flags and all this, you know, as human beings? That's my concern. And what's been striking to me coming to Palestine also, I've,

In the beginning, I felt that I'm more outraged and angry and emotional than all Palestinians I know together. Why? Because they used it, first of all. They know how stupid it is to snap at the border. And I've been thinking so many times, I would be a suicide bomber if I had to go through this every day. How...

It impresses me the way Palestinians deal with it. But again... No, but maintaining that humanity. I mean, yes, you have no choice, blah, blah, blah. But still, I do respect that. And I think we should acknowledge what...

Palestinians and all the different situations Palestinians live in belonging to Palestinian diaspora issues. You know, it's all different issues connecting to that identity in grief, in anger, in despair, and also happiness and joy and culture. I mean, for instance, what Ahmed was talking about earlier, what he wanted theatre to be, to be part of the grieving, to be part of the culture, to be part of society. That's also my wish. And I feel that Norway

It's the same. We are making culture or art into something that we go to the museum to watch or it's something to entertain us with.

For me art is a part of who I am, who we are as human beings. And it has throughout art history always been a part of the way we live. I just want to ask because one of the things I... You've been working a lot with the Freedom Theatre but you also have Motførestillingen in Norway.

and a lot of your work revolves around the Israeli colonialism and occupation of Palestine. I would say all my work. All your work, yes. To be honest. But what are some of the ways, we've worked together before, so I know a lot of your great work, but I want you to, how do you work together?

Very emotionally. Out of need, I would say. I just try again. I'm very simple. I'm not complex. I just try to survive as a human being. But what are some of the ways that you work with content from Palestine? Because you translate a lot of poems. We can start from October then. It's been a haze ever since October.

So since then I've been translating. The first thing I did then was having a reading of Gaza monologues. The first week I didn't know how to deal with this. And I called Imana Un because I remembered the Gaza monologues, which already was translated to Norwegian. What are the Gaza monologues? The Gaza monologues are testimonies from children from the attack on Gaza in 2008-2009.

and it was written in 2010 where Ali Abiyassin was one of the directors and assisting the writings of these monologues. So it's 33 monologues from kids, youngsters about their experiences during the war in 2008-9 in the Christmas time. And this play has been translated to many languages already

So in Norway, it was performed in Trondheim and also in Tromsø in 2010. And I remembered it. I was not part of that performance back then, but I know of it. So I just went there, brought that to stage and had a reading. And it was actually amazing for me. Because in the beginning, I've been coming back from Palestine so many times and people have not really cared. They're not interested.

I've seen, I've been shot at. I've seen people bleed to death in front of me. And my life has been shattered. And I come back here, nobody cares. We are more concerned, but I remember I went to a theatre festival in Stockholm. This was in 2010. And that was just when Bilain and the attack in Bilain had happened. And I came to the festival and they were introducing me for the

the director of the festival, directly from the West Bank, kind of sexing it up a bit. I was like, well, I've been shot at and I see someone die, so this is not the West Bank, it's an occupation going on and it's actually real, also political, correct. I wasn't able to go out to my hotel room during the whole stay because I felt that art did not concern me. What was going on, it was just for show, it was performances.

for each other and it was performing arts and it was very important performing arts and blah blah I don't give a shit about that you know it doesn't concern me as a human being or as an artist so um back to what I do um reading all the gossip monologues and and now this time when I called the actors it was so easy to have someone come reading it was amazing and this was

Three, four weeks after the war had gone on in October for three weeks and the numbers of the killed were just skyrocketing and everybody wanted to participate, which felt amazing. People are objecting to this. Finally, you know, it costs too many lives. We knew this like 76 years ago, but at least this is a good change.

And the same with what we worked together on was the vigil for Gaza where we had the reading all the names during October which was a way of grieving, a way of again handling being in the same room together which for me theater room is that space, it's a safe space for people. It was a 24-hour wake that we had in Vegas in early December where we read

6,740 names or something of all the from the Gaza health ministry because I don't think I think there were 14,000 dead by then at that time but they hadn't recorded them as well but it was a really strong and more than 100 people participated in that reading so we had time slots like for two hours each with different teams 24 hours apart from the night and

And it was live screamed and it was a ritual how to read all this name insisting on the fact that they had value. And it's the person we have lost, this world has lost. Because I totally agree with what Ahmed says.

It's not only about Palestine, it's about who are we as humanity when we can live in genocidal times and not only allow, we are allowing it to happen. Not only that, we are arming Israel. So that was one part. And then again, a reading of translating texts from Gaza. I'm translating now.

The book of Atif Abu Saif, the former cultural minister who is a friend of mine. I care deeply about him. He was in Gaza. He was a cultural minister for the PA in October and lived normally in Ramallah. I translated his diary from the war in 2014 as well. And I sent him a message on the 8th of October saying, I'm thinking of you and your family.

I'm in Gaza and I was like "why?" and him and his eldest son were there they were supposed to be there for three days but obviously it was longer his son wanted to come with his 16 and he or 15 he turned 16 in Gaza

Now before Christmas he wanted to come with to visit his grandparents because when you move from Gaza to West Bank obviously nobody can you can't enter Gaza easily it's not like you swap by. You have never succeeded in getting there for instance neither have I. I've tried we haven't been allowed.

So the specific, the fact that he's a culture minister, that's the privilege of the job. So he brought his child there and he stayed there for 85 days. Now I'm translating, I'm on day 84. It's 85 days in hell. And I met him in Ramallah now when I was in Palestine. And he told me that his son Yasser, he can't eat red meat anymore.

There's a lot of picking of body parts and a lot of excellent writing. It's brutal to relive it as I do when I translate it, but it gives me meaning kind of to share the stories. And I had a reading where I combined his texts because I'm also still in contact with Ali Abiyassin,

almost daily, basically. And he has written a lot of texts and I've translated a lot of them and have made a performance where I combined Atef and Ali's voice because they are very different. Atef is very... As a cultural minister, he has access to a lot of things that Ali doesn't, who is internally displaced in Deir el-Balagh.

and more on the normal floor where Atef has a different position and he can talk about the political things, the things that go on with the scenes, with the AIDS for instance, and how the toilet functions and all these regulations and all these specific things that are very interesting to see how the war actually

messes up with every single little detail in your life. And then Ali's voice, which is more artistic, which is more emotional, they together work well. So I call this performance Ghost and I performed it with some actors who had the reading though. There's no budget in what I do. So with reading and people want to participate, which is a gift and a joy, which

Another and very important aspect, speaking about surviving this, the sense of community since October. For I have felt so alone in Norway. And of course, mainly my own fault, because I haven't searched for friends, maybe. But now I know, no, we know each other now. We have seen that we are many. We are not alone.

and strengthening each other. And this community feeling has been amazing to feel here in Norway. We are many and we do not give up. Of course, we will lose some now, I guess, who will fall out, but some will continue. The hardcore will continue. For sure.

And I'm not sure if I, yeah, I think I answered. You did, absolutely. And I think also that's what, I think a lot of people have been feeling alone. And then we suddenly, unfortunately and fortunately, we found each other through what's happened. It's unfortunate that that had to happen for us to find each other. But at the same time, I don't think we would necessarily survive this.

this without finding each other as well. - Also in terms of art, relational art, you mentioned Motforistillingen, for me that's been a curating platform where I brought a lot of Palestinian artists to Norway. It's been a facilitating coming together. You know, we haven't had much audience maybe, like,

to any 50 audience members, but the audience haven't been the point behind these festivals we had in the beginning. It's about, one, challenging majority Norwegian artists to, for instance, to reading. Like a white Norwegian privileged person, I can read and empathize and understand and learn and educate. So the educational aspect of it is important to me also. Yeah, but also you did it, if I remember, the December in Vegas, it was a very famous event

actresses and actors who were in the audience. And parliamentarians. I mean, there was a hundred people who participated in reading. Also people, politicians from the parliament was part of it. So this is a way of making an imprint in each and one person because I don't think for me

What's important for me in my work is to make things personal. It affects me. What happens to you affects me. Not only because I know you, but it affects me. What happens to you too affects me. We are in this together. And for me, the ritual, the vigil, is a very good example of our manifestation of that. We are in it together. It is a circle of life.

circular movement. Circular. Thank you. Beautiful British. British mandate. Building communities are the British mandate. That's where they have their colonial heritage of war.

Why do I want? But all these regulations and rules are directly inherited from the British mandate in Israel. They're just building upon it. But you know, that's for me what is good about activism and about to work and to fight for others because it's not really about them. It's about you. You're building yourself. You become something else. You become something more than yourself.

You are fighting for others. Now you're part of other circles, for other people. And that makes you really a stronger person, makes you a stronger individual. You are not caring just only for yourself, which is very small.

You care for the Mabuchi people in Chile, the people in Amazon who are still fighting the machine and the technology. The people in Kashmir and Bangladesh. Yeah, for me, I become more strong. I'm not afraid anymore. I'm not afraid of the simple things that normally human being afraid. I'm not afraid from tomorrow. I'm not afraid if I don't have money. I'm not afraid if I don't have a house.

I'm not afraid if I have children or I have to marry tradition or not. I am beyond this. I am for others. And that's a really create a big movement. And that's what we want.

I think the success for me if we come to create a big movement in this world where we fight for each other so no one can control anymore. We can buy this, we can do that, we can decide that and that's inshallah the dream. And that is to understand what Ahmad said that someone contacts the theater to want to help because it makes them feel good. We are not working, I'm not, I've never worked with any Palestinian because I want to...

It's like it's... No, exactly. It's because it helps me. It's interesting to me. And it's interesting art scene. It's interesting artists. Very inspiring artists sitting right here. I mean, it's not about helping those. It's not ego-driven. There are no them on this planet. There's only us. Yeah.

And society also, it has no will on its own. Society is exactly, actually, daring to be, that's the thing for me, I want to dare to be naive enough to say that the society is exactly what we choose to make it because it doesn't have a will on its own. It's this result of our daily actions. Do different things, different society. It is very simple and I insist on that.

Fuck being top politics. You should give the politicians some acting lessons as well. That's the problem. They cannot act, actually. Exactly. You see that they're lying. It's not from their heart. But I just want to round up before we have the last question, because we talk a lot about humanity, about different tools you use in politics.

your work with young people. How does this affect the young people, the young Palestinians in the Freedom Theatre? Do you see their growing as person as human beings as well because they're going that way? Yes, I think it's a big challenge and we believe the core of the work of the Freedom Theatre is children and youth and that for us is the main

Point of work is if you create a healthy Individuals you create a healthy community then you create a healthy Country to fight to stand up whatever and you know you talk about Janine Campbell You are now almost 20,000 people living there. There is nothing like playgrounds Children grow up living in a very violent atmosphere reality

For example, if you ask the children in Palestine, they are ready to die. They are ready to be martyred. They are not afraid to stand in front of a tank. They are not afraid to fight a sniper. And they would like bet where you wanted, here, here, here. And they bet with the soldier. You cannot achieve it. Ah, in the leg, you know. And for me, this is really because I travel, I come, I come back, I saw. And for me, like,

It's not normal. This is not okay. It's not normal. You know, when somebody comes out from the prison shooting and the children collecting the bullets are like, no, the kids should be kids. And that's another fight in the community. How to create a family...

A family day, a family culture. We don't have a family culture. Yeah, we have a family culture, but you have a boy that he's having a stone throwing on the vehicles of the army and could be martyrs. And when you ask the children, what do you want to be? They have no clue about the future. They don't think about the future. They want to be martyrs. They want to be fighters. No one thinks, if you tell them, okay, let's have an adventure.

What adventure? Let's go to the mountain, make a picnic. They will be in their bands because this is for them. They cannot think in this way. He think about how to claim the tank and take down the gun. Tell him like, okay, tell me what your dream to become in the future. He,

He will be like, what? They never, they can't even face that. Or tell them what you're planning to do tomorrow and after. Away from this, they cannot think about that. And for me, this is a problem when a child does not have dreams, does not have imagination. And that's our work, to bring them inside the theater to play.

Your time is not to free Palestine. It's not to free the world. It's not your responsibility to having all this weight in your shoulder. Now, be a child and let's play. You are safe here to play. To be whatever you want. To dream whatever you...

your dream is to go, but it's here. And that for us is the main goal to try to save it. So that's why we do summer camp, we do winter camp, place for children. They come train every week, but it's not enough. It's not enough comparing to reality. And inshallah, the second plan is to create a children's club

in the middle of Jenin camp to be a club. Like children can come when they ever want. There is no specific time. They can come, sit, see a movie, play something, watch radio. And I want to create a Palestinian DJ.

a Palestinian radio. Not only Palestinian fighter and actor. No, there is many different things we need to focus about. So this place where really can be children to children all the time without a specific like, you know, workshops or whatever. So there is a place where they can be children, speak to each other as children. That's the plan, inshallah. And two great examples of kids that, you know, one of the students I met

two years ago his handshake was like air I will not mention his name to expose him but he was so thin and fragile and you told me that it's been a battle to get him into the theatre and strengthen his self-awareness and many examples yeah self-esteem and he was too shy maybe to be an actor but then he started to maybe do other things and you know amazing job impressive job and then comes the invasion and arrests maybe or shoot someone and it

It's all these challenges you face interrupting your excellent work and important work with kids. And also now with Ranin Odeh, who's working with the children's program. I saw her workshop in June. And the way she worked with the kids, not the smallest, youngest, but the youth ones, the way they had written their own stories, working with their own tests, and she challenged them and challenged them

until they broke down and released their emotions because they're butt-locked, right? But I think we do not have this kind of culture of talking, of psychology, that we had a big problem with mental health which we also in the Freedom Theatre we mentioned and we tried to push to talk about because in our culture you do not have a space for "I want to talk about my feelings".

You don't have to be a man. You have to be strong. We're all heroes. And for me, no, heroes are human beings. Exactly. And the human being, there is needs. And for me, I remember when we had time, like a bit chill time, where we really focused on the child and youth program and we worked in a good way. We talk about 200 almost child, boy, girl, when they come, we talk about six months. Come shy, cannot raise their child.

eyes from the floor and they cannot stand beside the girl or you know and six months even the women the mothers came to see the graduation from the workshops they were in shock storytellers

We create storytellers because, you know, the class is also tradition. You go to the school, you have a teacher with a stick. It's boring. It's about hitting. It's about good one, bad one. And many of them, they don't even care about what the teacher is talking about. So they're not used to talk. They are not used to tell. They are not used to express themselves because always there is a bigger, you know, in my house, there is my father or my old brother where they control the house. You cannot speak.

In the street, there's the bad guys where you don't have a space to express as a child. In the school, it's the same. In the garden, the same. So where as a child you're going to grow up with a culture that express yourself and talk and have space? Only in that theater and that place.

And you see how you put a seat in the community from these children. They did theater, they're storytellers, and they know how to tell about their feelings in different ways as really artistic tools. So that's for me, yeah, that's a success. But we needed to continue. It's not enough for one time or for...

And the situation, the technical equipment, for instance, like we're trying, it's the theater, as you mentioned, the roof is almost breaking down. I mean, the windows are broken, the doors are, the situation, it needs to be rebuilt in many levels. But bringing equipment demanding first and foremost an end to the occupation and a safe place.

place to live, which is not at the moment. I mean, your students, the students who have been here, who we haven't spoken about the fact that they were denied a visa coming to Norway in the beginning, which is again absurd. Norway are denying Palestinian students a visa to come to Norway to participate in a school collaboration where a Norwegian school, Nordic Black Theatre, have been given funding from governmental or Oslo Kommune funding

to collaborate with the Freedom Theatre and they are preventing them from doing their job. It's absurd. I think... Yeah, sorry. Sorry, I just... The students are going back to the invasions. As we speak, as we are sitting here, there's a huge invasion ongoing. Nine people at least killed in the West Bank, six at least in Jenin. And...

I know all too well what they are going home to. And I feel the responsibility as we should, all of us. We have met these amazing students, seen their performance, met Ahmed,

We are responsible now to not just send them off home and that was interesting. We were touched by their performance. Thank you. Bye. You know, we are really, you know, so we need to put pressure and promise them to continue the work because Mustafa Sheta, their daily manager, is still in prison and the invasion. I think that sums up

perfectly because we're talking about human lives humanity building playgrounds it's just like super basic human needs that we need and all the work that you do as well it's just like a lot of things we take for granted especially in the west

I would just mention the website of Cultural Intifada. We made a website because many people ask us, you know, what to do, how we can help. And, you know, it's different people from artists to normal to... So we did this website where you really like...

You can have everything, resources, news, ways, artistic, and even we made a demand what you could do. 15 demands, different ways, simple to complicated, and you choose how you can fit in the support or anything to do for Palestine or in general for any case like Palestine. So please, culturalinfada.com.

Dot com. We'll add it to the episode link description as well. Dot com. The Culture Intifada. Libeke and Ahmed, thank you so, so much for speaking with us today. Thank you. It's really, I mean, thank you for sharing everything about the Freedom Theatre and thank you for

encouraging and learning and teaching Palestinians and promoting their work. We really appreciate everything that you've done. I quickly would just want to ask you, we're going to dream a bit, if or when Palestine is free, what do you look most forward to?

I mean, I don't have say more than Giuliano Merhammi said that we dream as a freedom theater to become a generator for forests, for freedom forests to fight for others. So if Palestine is free,

freedom theater will move to other country where there is oppression, where there is colonization, occupation, Uganda, I don't know, Africa, South America, wherever. I mean, there is a lot of places where it needs an example like a freedom theater to fight for values and for humanity. And yes, inshallah, I hope, I don't like to dream,

because through my life, you know, hope, dreams, this is a kind of West. They knew well our language and our culture, so they used

the words to make us, you know, waiting and waiting and waiting. Hope for me, working now. If you are having a hope, do something now. So with the hope, can something change? Not to sit and hope for a future. And for me, it's not a dream. For me, Palestine is free.

Which is for me if it is free that means the whole world is free. That's why I think it's a very complicated case. It's not something easy happen tomorrow. But I hope that in every country, in every place have the same situation of Palestine. We create theaters, we create culture that connect to each other and making a network that we can fight for each other. Yes, I believe.

I share the dream. You share the dream. I share the dream. Yes. In it together. Yes. Inshallah. A borderless world without passports. Exactly. Thank you so, so much. And good luck on the rest of your journey.

That's me. The trip is not easy. It's going to be more harder now because as much, you know, as much you do, they know about you. Then you have to be more, you know, updated. And really, thank you very much for this interview. I think it's good for me because sometimes I need to update myself what I'm believing. So, yeah, thank you very much for having us. Free Palestine. Free Palestine. No doubt. No doubt. Thank you. Thank you.

Hi, and welcome to the Palestina-pod. Today we were at a very strong theatre show in Botsparken. It was a collaboration between Nordic Black Theatre, which is based in Greenland, and the Palestinian theatre, The Freedom Theatre. The Freedom Theatre is a theatre and cultural house in Genin refugee camp on the occupied West Bank. They set up professional theatre productions, hold theatre workshops in the refugee camp,

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in the city of Jenin and the towns around it, offers learning in acting, pedagogy, photography and publishes books, exhibitions and short films. Since they opened the doors in 2006, they have made theater and visual arts accessible for all children in Jenin refugee camp.

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The work has made the new refugee camp known in Palestine and international for news and thought-provoking theatre and media productions. They have created a generation of artists and leaders who one day will stand in the corner for the Palestinian Free Europe movement. And now that The Freedom Theatre has been here in Norway, both in Oslo, Trondheim and a little around Europe as well, we thought we had to talk to the leader of The Freedom Theatre, Ahmed Tobaasi.

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Ahmed was born in Jenin refugee camp, and his personal history reflects both the armed and cultural struggle as part of the Palestinians' DNA. After growing up with the violent consequences of the Israeli occupation, the first and second intifadas, the invasion and the down-bullet-dosing of the camp, and after also being shot at, he was politically captured for four years when he was only 17 years old.

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After the release, he moved to The Freedom Theatre, where he later lived in Norway, where he worked and trained with the prestigious Nordic Black Theatre in Oslo. He also received a grant from Dramatikerforbundet in Norway.

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And we are also fortunate to have with us Vibeke Harper. Don't let me confuse the name, she is a full-blood Palestinian, who is a Norwegian concept artist, author and translator, based in Oslo and Ramallah, Palestine. Her work explores the western identity, its narratives and humor through themes such as land and human rights, power structures and hierarchy.

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The Israeli colonial occupation of Palestine and the Norwegian Western colonization of it. There has been a great influence on her life over the last ten years, and something that we, the rest of the world, have awakened to quite a bit over the last ten months.

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Vibeke woke up just before everyone else. That's right. Harper is co-artist leader for the art activist collective Motforestillinger, which she runs in collaboration with Marius Kolbønstrøtt in Oslo, and member of the board of directors at Takk's Theatre School. Founded and run by Petra Bargoti, Enda Bargoti, and Eid Aziz Ramallah.

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We are sitting here with a lot of impressions from this episode. It is a bit longer than normal, but it is absolutely worth listening to every single word that is said. Art is resistance. That is what both Vibeke and Ahmed show in this episode. So, good luck and fritt på all sin. Fritt på all sin.

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Vibeke Harper and Ahmed Toubasi, thank you so much for joining us at Palestine Upholding. Thank you for inviting us. I do want to just say, as we're recording this, the Israeli occupation forces have closed all entrances in the Jenin camp, in what seems to be the worst invasion of Jenin at the moment. So our thoughts go to the people of Jenin, and you're obviously from Jenin as well, visiting Norway.

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Ahmed, you grew up in Jenin in the occupied West Bank in Palestine and was held as a political prisoner at the age of 17 until you were 21. Is that correct? Can you tell us a little bit about what life was like at that time and just generally growing up in an occupation?

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No, you know, like it is for me when I was a child, I really didn't know what was going on. I see people running. There is army. There is a jail. But I don't know who these people are, why these people are passing my house in the night, why they arrest my father, why they following my neighbor, why they're killing. So for me, a little child watching all of that and

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Nobody from my family or my friends told me this is bad people or good people. So then there is no propaganda in the Palestinian culture against this occupation. It's just they try to have a normal life. But that's the thing, like when you grow up, you open your eyes on soldiers. And for me, I was considering them as aliens.

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because they're always in this green uniform, coming, following, curfews. And the only memory I have from these people, it's arresting my father, killing my cousin, hitting me as a young little boy playing in the neighborhood. And you grow up until you become 17, and then you see there is a big invasion that the Israeli army wants to invade.

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And even the invasion, you see all of what is going on. And in the end, you discover nobody knows what is going on in Palestine.

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People talk about peace, about conflict, about all these kinds of words, but actually nobody knows what is going on. And for us as young people, we thought that the world is really following. The world knows what's going on, the media, the TV, the news, but you discover there is a bigger game going on than just us in Palestine. And for me, that was the shock when I first arrived to Europe.

28.340 s

00:05:52

that was the shock. It's like really they have no clue what is going on there in Palestine. And you can compare Palestine to other countries and communities in this world where the West

12.660 s

00:06:20

America, West, Israel, this kind of mind where they can control everything and they can send the focus wherever they want. It's not our choice to be in the media or not. And for sure, the West propaganda made everything cataclysmic.

18.760 s

00:06:33

categorized like a group and it's become like really a frame you are Al Qaeda or you are ISIS or you are Arab or you are Muslims or you are African you are South American and all of that by even you say it you will have already a picture of these people and you will be not really

25.160 s

00:06:52

Nevnt i episoden

Israeli occupation

The Israeli occupation of Palestine is a recurring theme throughout the conversation, with both guests discussing its impact on their lives and work.

Genin refugee camp

Ahmed Tobasi, the founder of The Freedom Theatre, grew up in the Jenin refugee camp, and the episode discusses the camp's history and the challenges faced by its residents.

The Freedom Theatre

The Freedom Theatre is a Palestinian theatre and cultural center in the Jenin refugee camp. The episode explores the theatre's mission of using art as resistance and its impact on the community.

Oslo Agreement

The Oslo Agreement, a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, is mentioned as a flawed attempt to resolve the conflict, and its consequences are discussed.

Gaza

The conflict in Gaza is a central focus of the episode, with both guests discussing the devastating impact of the recent war on the Palestinian people. The episode highlights the ongoing violence and human suffering in Gaza.

Zionist ideology

Ahmed Tobasi critiques Zionist ideology, arguing that it is a source of oppression and violence and that it seeks to control the world's resources and politics.

Western colonization

The episode discusses the historical legacy of Western colonialism and its continuing impact on Palestine. The conversation highlights the need for decolonization and the dismantling of oppressive power structures.

Hamas

Hamas, a Palestinian political and military organization, is mentioned in the context of the conflict in Gaza and the ongoing tensions between Israel and Palestine.

Israel

Israel is a central subject of the episode, with both guests discussing the country's role in the ongoing conflict, its occupation of Palestine, and its treatment of Palestinians.

Hezbollah

Hezbollah, a Lebanese political and military organization, is briefly mentioned in the context of the ongoing conflict in the Middle East.

Iran

Iran is mentioned as a potential player in the ongoing conflict in the Middle East and its relationship with other actors in the region is discussed.

United States

The United States is criticized for its role in the conflict, particularly its support for Israel and its involvement in the region.

Ukraine

The war in Ukraine is briefly discussed, with Ahmed Tobasi drawing parallels between the conflict in Ukraine and the ongoing conflict in Palestine.

Russia

Russia is mentioned in the context of the war in Ukraine and its relationship with other actors in the region is discussed.

Facebook

Facebook is mentioned as a platform that is controlled by Zionist interests and that is used to suppress Palestinian voices and narratives.

Meta

Meta, the parent company of Facebook, is mentioned as a company that is controlled by Zionist interests and that is used to suppress Palestinian voices and narratives.

social media

Social media is criticized as a tool that is used to manipulate public opinion and suppress Palestinian voices.

British mandate

The British mandate in Palestine is discussed as a historical precedent for the current conflict, with the guests arguing that the current occupation is a continuation of colonial practices.

Oslo Accords

The Oslo Accords, a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, are mentioned as a failed attempt to resolve the conflict, and their consequences are discussed.

Netanyahu

Benjamin Netanyahu, the former prime minister of Israel, is mentioned in the context of his policies and his role in the conflict.

Al-Aqsa mosque

Al-Aqsa mosque, a holy site in Jerusalem, is mentioned in the context of its importance to both Muslims and Jews and the ongoing tensions over its control.

Corona

The COVID-19 pandemic is mentioned as a global event that has contributed to the current political climate and the rise of nationalist and extremist ideologies.

Gaza monologues

The Gaza monologues are a series of testimonies from children who experienced the war in Gaza in 2008-2009. The episode discusses the importance of these monologues as a form of storytelling and resistance.

Ali Abiyassin

Ali Abiyassin is a Palestinian performing artist who is mentioned as a friend of Vibeke Harper and someone who has been particularly impacted by the conflict in Gaza.

Atif Abu Saif

Atif Abu Saif is a Palestinian cultural minister who is mentioned as a friend of Vibeke Harper and someone who has written about his experiences during the war in Gaza.

Cultural Intifada

Cultural Intifada is a website created by the guests of the episode to provide resources, news, and information about Palestinian culture and resistance.

Deltakere

host

unknown

guest

Ahmed Tobasi

guest

Vibeke Harper

Lignende

Laster