212. Dr. Anthony Chaffee om Carnivore, fullverdig proteiner som medisin (English)

Ny episode av relasjonspodden, ute nå. Foreldrene til en av lytterne holder det mot henne at hun har tatt imot penger og ferier fra dem tidligere. Nå har de invitert henne igjen på tur med lommepenger, men hun vil jo ikke ha de pengene og de problemene som ofte oppstår i etterkant. En annen lytter har fått litt for en kollega. Ingenting skjedde, men hun har så dårlig samvittighet for mannen sin. Skal hun fortelle ham om forelskelsen? Hør relasjonspodden gratis der du hører podcast. Hei dere, velkommen til oss. Vi er Biohacking Girls, din podcast for optimal helse. Vi er to jenter bak rattet. Dette er Molika. Dette er Alette. Vi er biohacking-kolleger og legger sammen våre erfaringer og kunnskap for å inspirere deg til å ta fatt på biohacking for å optimalisere helsen din. Vi følger med og setter forstørrelsesglas på trender og syste forskning og snakker med verdens toppeksperter innen trening, lifecoaching, helse og biohacking. Er du klar for å starte med konkrete hacks, lytte til din egen kropp og ta fatt på din helsemessige reise sammen med oss? Vi ønsker naturlig tilnærming til helsen vår og med snakke til både menn og kvinner. Du kan gjerne gi tilbakemeldinger til oss under podcasten her, og slå gjerne til med en god stjerne. Du finner oss også på Instagram og Facebook. Er du klar? Velkommen! Noe av det første biohacket, kan vi vel kalle det, som vi startet når vi startet vår biohacking-reise sammen, Monika, det var jo dette med å teste Carnivore. Vi hadde akkurat hørt om det, vi hadde snus på det, vi hadde holdt på med Kjeto en stund og tenkte at nå tar vi en skikkelig reset. Karnivårdietten går jo ut på at man spiser animalsk mat, altså ingen grønnsaker. Det blir jo også kalt nullkarbodiett eller kjøttdietten. Det er ikke så mye studier på dette enda, og mange mener at det er en veldig ubalansert måte å leve på, men det er jo stikk motsatt av det vi får beskjed om å spise i forhold til myndighetene og det de anbefaler. Ja, så det er klart at dette er jo kontroversielt, og kanskje ikke for alle, men det var faktisk veldig gøy å teste det, og vi hadde veldig mange gode erfaringer med det. Og nå, så mange år etter, så er det mange av dere der hjemme også som er skikkelig nysgjerrig på dette med karnivårdigheten. Ja, vi ser jo at kanivåret har tatt litt av. Det er mange som kontakter oss, og vi kjenner flere som har begynt å bare spise kjøtt. Så det er jo klart at denne dieten er blitt kontroversiell innen den tradisjonelle medisinen og ernæringsfaget. Men som med alle typer dieter vil den påvirke oss helt ulikt fordi vi har et forskjellig utgangspunkt. Men det er mange ting som er kjempefine. Ja, for i kjølvannet av dette så har det faktisk blitt et mye større fokus på dette med å få i seg nok proteiner. Og det liker vi, for det er jo også veldig opp i dagen nå at det er noe vi virkelig trenger. Og det tror jeg mange kjenner på som en god ting når de begynner på kardiovårdigheten. Ja, også kan vi lov å si noe om dette dyre velferd og miljøperspektivet rundt å spise kjøtt er kommet frem i lyset også nå. Og det er et viktig tema å få frem, synes vi. Vi kan spise kjøtt og samtidig være opptatt av dyre velferd. Ja, og Monika, vi har jo testet dette her, og vi synes jo det er veldig ok, og mye av det vi har opplevd da, er at det er for det første synes jeg da, som ikke er så glad i å lage mat, at det er veldig enkelt, og det går veldig fort å få i seg et måltid. Dette med karnivåret, det synes jeg er fint å gå litt inn og ut av. Ta det periodvis, bare for å nullstille meg litt. Jeg får så enormt mye energi. Jeg synes det er lettere å trene. Jeg er mindre sulten. Jeg mister alle cravings. Jeg er helt enig. Jeg synes også det er veldig deilig i forhold til trening. Jeg liker det godt at jeg blir så stille og rolig i hodet, og veldig stabil i omhøret. Jeg skjønner at Om man har mentale problemer, kan dette faktisk hjelpe. Dette som mange snakker om, at vi må ha fiber i kosten, bare gleder oss til dagens episode. Jeg synes magen min fungerer så bra når jeg spiser carnivore. Hva med deg? Helt enig. Jeg har heller ikke hatt noen videre problemer med det. Det eneste er at jeg er veldig glad i fett. Dere kan høre på episoden hva som skjer hvis man spiser veldig mye fett. Men ja, det er test. Det er ikke farlig, og det verste som kan skje er at du slutter om 30 dager hvis det er det du har lyst til å prøve. En annen ting som er viktig, synes vi biohackere, er å være litt mer circadian når det gjelder spising. Altså, kanskje spise de grønnsakene som er i sesong. Nå kommer jo snart sommeren i møte, så nå er det andre matvarer som kan ligge på talerken. I dag har vi med en veldig spesiell og spennende gjest. Han tuner inn fra Perth i Australia. Han er en sann pioner innen næring og medisin, og han promoterer en carnivore-diet. Vi kan vel kalle han en kjøttetende lege. Med en dyp forståelse av menneskekroppen og næringens transformative kraft, er han on a mission for å revolusjonere måten vi ser helse på. Han heter Dr. Anthony Sheffie og vi vet hva mange av dere digger han. Han er amerikansk lege og neurosurgeon og de siste 20 årene har han forsket på den optimale næringen for mennesker når det kommer til ytelse, trening og helse. Han begynte på universitetet i en alder av 16 år og studerte molecular og cellular biology med en minor i kjemi som kulminerte med en MD fra Royal College of Surgeons. Han har også en stor podcast som heter The Plant Free MD med masse spennende gjester og temaer rundt kosthold og helse. Så i dag, kjære lyttere, har vi altså selveste Anthony Chaffee på podcasten vår som gjest, og vi er skikkelig stolte. Velkommen til By Hacking Girls, din podcast for optimal helse. Hei, Antony Shafi. Finalt møter vi deg. Vi føler at vi kjenner deg fordi vi ser deg på Instagram, og vi lytter til podkasten, og ser deg på YouTube. Det er fint å se din fjell, selv om det er gjennom skjermen. Hvordan går det? Det går veldig bra, takk. Det er fint å møte deg begge. Vi har snakket en stund, og nå kan vi snakke, så det er fint. Tell us where you are, where you are located, what you are doing right now. I'm from America, but I'm in Perth, Australia. We're on the west coast of Australia next to absolutely nowhere. I'm just working as a doctor here in Perth. I have my own practice in functional medicine and health optimization. I'm also a neurosurgical resident as well. Er ikke Perth den største sekluderte stedet i verden? Det er ingenting rundt her? Ja, det er den største isolerte stedet. Det er omtrent 2 millioner mennesker i det større metropolitetsområdet, men det er tusenvis av miljoner fra den neste stedet av samme størrelse. Western Australia is quite large. It's the size of Alaska, so it's a big, big state. It's about one third of the land mass of Australia, of the continent of Australia. So it's a big place, and Perth is really the only city of that size in that state. You have to go a couple thousand miles. Det kan være 1.500 kilometer til en annen stor by. Adelaide kan være den neste største byen i Sør-Australien. Det er ganske langt. Det er faktisk snabbere og billigere å fly til Indonesia og Bali enn å fly til Sydney eller Melbourne. Det er det folk tenker på å gjøre. Hvor lenge har du levd i Perth, Australien? Just about five years now. How is the ultra processed life over there compared to America? It's fairly similar. Australia is very similar in a lot of ways to America. Obviously there's a lot of differences too, but people are people. As far as processed foods and all these sorts of things, Alle nyheter og nyheter er ganske universelt tilgjengelige. Alle spiser ganske mye av samme prosess. Det er ingen forskjell. Men de har pushet plantbaseringsmovementet veldig hardt. Det er mye veganisme og vegetarisme som er pushet her. Jeg tror jeg har vært en kraft for det gode i Australien ved å pushe det på en annen måte. Da jeg først kom til Perth at jeg bare spiste kjøtt, og det blokket folk vekk, for ingen hadde hørt om dette som et konsept på den tiden. De ble absolutt tatt tilbake. Jeg måtte ha konversasjoner to eller tre ganger om dagen, snakke om min hele filosofi. Hva er det med kolesterol? Hva er det med fiber? Hva mener du? Hva er det med kanser? Hva er dette og dette? Det var de samme spørsmålene. Jeg måtte gå gjennom hele ting to eller tre ganger om dagen. Nå er folk bare gjør det, og flere og flere finner det. og å forandre dietene deres mot en diet med dyr, bort fra en diet med grønner og føle seg mye bedre. Så det har vært ganske positivt, vil jeg si. Kan du se noen resultater etter mange år av plantbasert diet i dine klienter? Hvordan de føler, eller desse nivåene i deres blodanalyse og sånt? Ja, de er ofte ekstremt nutrisjonalt nødvendige. Det er noen ganger vanskelig å ta opp, for referensrangene for nutrienter, hormoner og andre ting, er ikke hva som er optimalt. Det er noe som de fleste mennesker ikke forstår, og de fleste doktorer ikke kjenner, er at referensrangene som er brukt i laboratoriet, er i virkeligheten for samfunnet. Så hver kopp år gjør de tilbake referensrangene, og de første tusen mennesker som kommer inn i laboratoriet denne år, det er referensrangen. Det er bare å søke for averandelen i samfunnet, som er skjeden for at alle laboratorier har forskjellige referenser. Hvis du får ditt blod tatt på en annen måte. different clinic, you'll get different reference ranges listed there. And people don't realize that. And so, as people are getting more and more malnourished and sicker and worse hormones, that's just shifting lower and lower and lower. And so, now we have much of the reference range for some of these nutrients like B12, for instance, that are actually fully within a true clinical deficiency. So, in Australia, the reference range for B12 could be anywhere from 140 to 650, sometimes up to 750, right, if it's a different lab. But anything under 400 can actually cause demyelination of your nerves, of your axons, because it causes nerve damage. You need B12 to myelinate the axons and give that insulation so you can get proper conductivity of your neurons. And so if you don't have enough B12, they can start to demyelinate and you get nerve damage. You get brain damage, right? So under 400 is a true clinical deficiency. And yet they're saying from 140 to 650 is totally normal. So there's a huge part of that, that is a true clinical deficiency. So you might have vegans and vegetarians saying my B12 is fine, or these other things are fine. They're not fine. They're just, it's just, no one else is fine either. And so you're just in that. in that range, but that range is actually a bad range. You're actually in a clinical deficiency. So, you have to look at reference ranges for actual good health. And when you look at that, it's a very different story. But even then, most people will be nutritionally deficient unless they're on a carnivore diet, like a meat-only diet or a meat-heavy diet anyway, or they're taking a lot of supplements. But the vegans and vegetarians especially, they will be more so, they'll be much more nutritionally deficient even if they supplement. A lot of plants have anti-nutrients which actually bind and block out and strip out nutrients out of your body, stop you from being able to absorb them and actually get into your bloodstream and actually strip out the nutrients like oxalates can strip out calcium from your blood serum. And so, you will get more nutritionally deficient even if you're supplementing. It's not enough to just supplement. And they'll get a lot of hormonal issues, a lot of autoimmunity especially. Plants seem to trigger autoimmunity. You get these lectins, these defense chemicals in plants that get in our body. They're foreign objects. Our body doesn't like that and our body attacks it. And that can cause cross reactivity with our organs. It's thought by some, we haven't proven this one way or the other, that these lectins, which can bind onto the carbohydrate molecules on the surface of your cells, get into your bloodstream and can bind onto the carbohydrates on surface of different cells on your organs and sort of attack it and damage it. And now your body starts making antibodies towards it and starts attacking that. But then your organ is getting damaged in the, in the crossfire. So you're getting things like multiple sclerosis or Hashimoto's or Graves disease or Crohn's disease. And just by eliminating out the plants, even if they're on like a clean plant based whole food diet, they could still have significant autoimmunity and other problems. And you eliminate these things out and go to just meat and water, antibodies will just come right down to nothing and go away, as well as improving their hormones, improving their nutritional profile, and many other things. Diabetes goes away. You know, people can be eating a plant-based diet and heavy on carbs and heavy on polyunsaturated fats and seed oils, and they could be diabetic. And we see a lot of people with insulin resistance and blood sugar issues and other sort of metabolic problems and diseases as well from a plant-based diet. But you are the Carnivore MD. You are really vocal about this great diet and you have lots of followers. How are you met in your profession as a doctor and by your colleagues? Is it better now or is it still hard? No, it was never hard. It was always, people were always interested in it. You know, I think most doctors are, you know, they want to know the truth. And this is something that we've all spent decades working up to this point and studying and learning and all these sorts of things. And most doctors understand that that our understanding of things does change. There was a very famous address to Harvard Medical School back in the 1930s where they said, half of what you've learned here at Harvard will turn out to be wrong. But no one's going to tell you which half. So you have to figure that out. You have to experiment. You have to do study. You have to do your own research and study and keep up with the research to figure out what's right and what's wrong and to build on that and be the next generation of thought leaders that can put out new information for people to learn. And half of that's going to be wrong and you're going to have to unlearn all that stuff as well. So, most doctors understand that. Most doctors have seen different fashions in medicine come and go and things develop and even in their own specialty. Well, we did this for a while and we said, oh, that's not really the best way to do it. Now we're doing it this way. So a lot of people do understand that. And a lot are very interested, especially because it is something so different. It goes completely against everything that we've always done, or have been doing for a little, not always done. Most of the time, we have been eating just meat. And we've been much more healthy as a result of that. But in the last 40 years, anyway, we've really gone away from that. And what's happened, we've become the fattest and sickest that human beings have ever been in human history. And so people can see that as well. And when you point these things out, they, they become more interested. They start asking questions. And if you have answers, then, then they ask more questions and they get more interested in it. So in fact, many doctors that I work with. have actually started doing this as well. And they found huge health benefits for themselves. And then they start applying it to their patients as well, and start seeing the benefits in their patients. They say, Okay, well, this is this is gonna, we should keep doing this. It does help that I'm, you know, not out of shape, you know, if you had someone who was, you know, who was, was not in very good shape and didn't have a very you know, Kemp's physical appearance, then maybe be like, well, I was just eating me and we don't want to look like him, you know, but, um, you know, I am in decent shape. And so they say like, well, you're going to get fat, you're going to get this, you're going to get that. And then they, and I sort of look at them and it's like, Well, maybe not. All right. Well, you tell me, you know, because obviously that didn't happen to me and that's not the, the effects that, that are going on. And so then, then it just opens up the conversation. So it's actually very well received early on. A lot of people were, you know, some people that were just sort of like, eh, you know, um, that's, that's clearly wrong and they didn't want to talk about it as a minority of people. Most people, when it came up, they were, they were very interested in it. But you have a good background in this carnivore diet as well. Can you tell us a little bit about how you started and how long you've been doing this and why you're still doing it? Yeah, well, to answer your last question first, the reason I'm still doing it is because it works and I feel better than I've ever felt in my entire life and so I have no interest in going and eating any other way. So I first came to this 25 years ago, 24 years ago, when I was doing my undergraduate degree at the University of Washington in Seattle and I was taking, I'd already taken biology and cancer biology or biology and botany. And I knew that plants were toxic and had these different defense chemicals, over a million different or nearly a million different defense chemicals that protected them from other animals and insects from eating them. And I was taking cancer biology and our professor started going over this and telling us that actually a lot of these chemicals were carcinogenic. And so he told us that Brussels sprouts had 136 known carcinogens, that mushrooms had over 100 carcinogens, and that spinach and kale, broccoli, celery, cabbage, cucumber, all the fruits and vegetables that we eat and see at the produce aisle all the time, they all had dozens, if not over 100 known carcinogens in them as well. And they were quite abundant. There was over 10,000 times more naturally occurring toxins and pesticides in the plant that plant makes themselves to protect themselves. We spray plants so insects can't eat them. The plants can already do that themselves. I mean, how did all these plants survive before all these good-natured humans were spraying them with crop dusters? We're not spraying forests with pesticides. We don't, you don't need to. Plants defend themselves by making their own poisons. And so this was quantified. back in the late 80s with Dr. Bruce Ames, a professor at UC Berkeley. who showed that there were, of the toxins that they knew about at the time, and there were many more discovered since, 10,000 times more naturally occurring pesticides and insecticides in the plants that we were eating than the pesticides we were spraying on them by weight. And that mushrooms were actually hundreds of times more likely to cause cancer in lab studies than alar, which was the pesticide that they were studying at the time. We were very taken aback by this. We were absolutely blown away. I remember just being just completely shocked and just looking around wildly. Everyone was looking around wildly saying like, this has to be a joke, looking for someone who was laughing or in on the joke or something like that. And no one was. And so we all settled down. I remember thinking in my head, but vegetables are still good for you though, right? And he just looked at us. And he gave us a funny look and he just said, I don't eat salad. I don't eat vegetables. I don't let my kids eat vegetables. Plants are trying to kill you. I was like, right. You know, get rid of these plants. And so I went to the grocery store after that and I was just looking around the grocery. It was just, everything was plants or had plants in it. And I was like, what the hell do I eat? what doesn't have a plant. And I was like, okay, eggs, eggs don't come from plants, meat, meat doesn't come from plants, eggs and meat. And so that's what I ate for five years after that. I've never felt better in my entire life, never performed better in rugby and other athletic endeavors. I had just boundless energy. I could just go forever. I never ran out of energy, never got tired, never. I didn't get sore. I never got sore from working out. I'd get sore from being, you know, from contact from rugby because it's a contact sport. It's a collision sport. It's not even a contact sport. And so you get, you know, banged up and bruised from that. But I never got the soreness that you get from just lifting weights or running and doing sprinting and things like that until I started reintroducing some of these things again, which was sort of by accident. I was in England playing professional rugby, and some of the meat was breaded. There's the same thing that the vegans are saying now, which is, wow, dose makes the poison. Yeah, that's true. The dose is very small. It's minuscule. Just the chicken that had just bits of crumbs on it, I said that to myself, is this all that bad? Dose makes the poison. Maybe it's not all that bad. I convinced myself it wasn't a big deal. It was a big deal. I only ate that a couple times a week, if that, and it was enough to really take the edge off of my performance and how I felt. you know, sore and achy and pull muscles. I was like, what the hell is going on? Why do I have all these like pains and sores? I thought I was injured. I thought I had an injury because I was never sore. I never had a problem. Now I was sore all the time and I didn't have the same endurance. I didn't have the same energy. I didn't have the same athletic performance. I could still perform, but I wasn't, it wasn't nearly to the same level and as effortless as it was before. And that was sort of this slipping of the way. So then I made that exception for breading and then there was a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. And then I was back to eating a very whole food diet. I never ate processed food. It was just lean meats and veggies, maybe some carbs. I was never really a big fan of bread or anything like that. but it was mostly just meat and vegetables because I was guilted into eating vegetables. And you didn't have any issues like a sugar addiction or IBS or allergies, anything that led you to this, just the knowledge you got from your studies? Yeah, exactly. It was purely based on that. I always wanted to eat healthy. My parents instilled that in us when we were young. My mom always cooked, we never had. junk food or sugar cereals or candy. It never had any of that stuff. And so we always understood that, you know, proper nutrition was very important. And certainly as an athlete, I wanted to make sure that I was eating the best that I could for my own athletic performance. And so no, I didn't, I didn't have any issues. And there was one six years ago when I came back to this, when I just realized, oh, humans actually are carnivores. That's just the kind of animal we are. And that's what I was doing when I've never felt better in my entire life. And I've always been trying to say, how the hell do I get back there to that time when I was, uh, in my early twenties. And I just thought it was just an age thing. where it was just like, well, I'm just 25 now. It's just going downhill. You're just dying now. And even though two months earlier, I felt like a superhero, now I didn't feel like a superhero. I didn't feel as good at all compared to myself. I still probably felt better than most people, but I didn't feel nearly as good as I did before that. And then at 38, I came back to this. I'm 44 now, which is crazy. Um, I still feel 22 and because I'm doing this again, at 38 years old, I came back to this in two weeks. I lost 10 kilos, 23 pounds. And I just, all the inflammation was out of my body. I wasn't sore anymore. I couldn't get tired. I couldn't get sore. I just felt amazing. And I said, right, I'm going back to play rugby. And at 38, I went back and started playing. uh, professional rugby again, felt amazing. And I was at a dead sprint the whole time. Couldn't wear myself out, was kept up with all the, all the professional players that were, that were there. It was mid season. I had just come back from doing humanitarian work in Bangladesh. And so I was very out of shape. I hadn't played a full season in three years and I hadn't really run or been in shape for at least that long. And two weeks on the corner board diet, I felt amazing. And I went to practice that night and I was just at a dead sprint the whole time. And I was able to keep up with everybody and just fit right in to the practices, even though it was mid-season and I was completely out of shape. My diet was allowed me to do that and allowed me to perform to the same athletic level that all these people were when they spent months getting into shape to get there. To illustrate that, two weeks after that, so now a month on a carnivore diet, but just two weeks of training, We did a fitness test called the modified bleep test and I came in sort of around top five out of 92 players who had been training the whole year and I was just I was just coming in in the last two weeks. So, that was all diet. That's 100% diet. I was not fit at all. And I didn't look like I do now. I wasn't lean at all. I was very pudgy. And so, I had a lot of excess weight. You know, even then, I mean, even though I dropped 23 pounds in the first couple of weeks, um, and I was putting on a lot of muscle and doing all this sort of stuff. I mean, it still took months and months and months until I sort of got to a steady lean body mass, probably like six months, eight months before I was, I was basically where I stayed after that. Um, but it was very quick. It was much quicker than I've ever seen in myself before. And, uh, even as a, as a professional athlete. That's amazing. Why don't you share with us, Anthony, what you eat during a day? What does a carnivore look like for you now? Because there are so many variations these days. We see Paul Saladino introducing so many things. And also, if you need to go to a party, do you drink some alcohol? Do you ever do chewing gums? Could you just share the details with us? Yeah. So I, uh, I just eat meat, um, predominantly beef, but any, any meat that you want. So any meat that you enjoy, it makes you feel good. And that you have access to is fine. You know, the gold standard, the best you could ever do is regeneratively raised grass fed and finished beef or wild game. That's very healthy. Um, with a lot of fat, you need a lot of fat and, um, and that's it. So for me, it's beef. I try to get, um, you know, good quality beef. I buy in bulk. And it's just much cheaper that way. It's just much more convenient as well. And I'll put grass-fed butter onto the meat as well because I really want a lot of fat. And so, I try to get around at least one, as much as two grams of fat to every one gram of protein. So, it's a very high fat diet, but it's animal fat. That's the kind of fat you need. want and so so that's what I do it's generally one meal a day unless I'm training very hard so if you're eating high-density nutrition you don't have to eat as much or as often and so if I'm just going around the hospital and doing sedentary work I generally don't need to eat more than once a day as long as I'm eating until I'm full and I listen to my body I don't count I don't count macros, I don't weigh anything, just like a koala doesn't, just like a lion doesn't, just like all animals on earth don't. They eat until their bodies tell them that's enough. And so if you're eating what you're designed to eat, you should be able to listen to your inbuilt systems. And so I do. And so I trust that mechanism and it's worked. all this time and for myself and also my patients and you eat until fatty meat stops tasting good because your hunger signals are going to be very, very different for a lot of complex hormonal reasons when you're eating a different diet and then eating carbohydrates and having your insulin go up because it messes up all those signaling pathways. But when you're only eating meat, you just eat until it stops tasting good. And that's, that's when you know, so you get the first bite is going to taste amazing. Last bite should taste pretty bland. And when you get to that bland taste, then you know you're done. Um, you're right. There are a lot of different things that people do with a carnivore. A lot of times people think of carnivores just eating more meat and then they still eat other stuff. They eat less of it. They just eat a lot more meat. So to me, it's really exclusively meat and water, maybe a bit of salt to taste. Never fish or shellfish? Oh, it's fine. Any animal, any animal you want. So I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't mean just red meat. Definitely, you absolutely have fish, chicken, beef, pork, lamb, venison, all these sorts of things. So any, any, any normally consumed animal is fine. And a bit of organs if you want. You don't necessarily have to. I don't eat all that many organs. And if it's good quality meat, you tend not to need that. Some people might need a bit extra, especially when people are first coming to this because they're going to be nutritionally deficient, like we said earlier. So, having a bit of organs mixed in as well, you don't need much. The majority should still be the muscle meat because that's the majority of the animal, right? You want to still keep it in the majority proportion of the animals. If you went and hunted a moose out in Norway and you took that down, you're going to have meat for the year. And it's going to have one liver, one heart, two kidneys. And just as a side note, the best meat I've ever had in my life was Norwegian moose. It was absolutely fantastic. Wow. Yeah. So we went out with apparently our mutual friend, Magnus Berner, who I went to college with and apparently lives close to you guys when I was visiting him. And for the listeners, he's the guy behind the smoothie exchange. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's a funny story too. I was there with him when he came up with that. But when I was visiting him, in Oslo, a friend of mine that I played rugby with, we were all friends in college, a guy named Altar. We all went to visit, the two of us went to visit when I was living in England, we sort of went over there. And he and his dad had just done a moose hunt with their friends, and so they had like a whole bunch of moose. And we went to his dad's house and had this moose fondue, just sort of deep fried it in different oils. It was just amazing. He kept coming out with trays of meat and we're like, yeah, is it possible to get more like that? Yeah, no problem. It was absolutely fantastic. It was the best meat I'd ever had. The origin of Smoothie Exchange, we were in college, we just finished up with classes and finals and we're just going through graduation and everything like that. We'd been out drinking that before as you usually do in college. And, um, and I never drank during the rugby season, but you know, on, on sort of the outsides of that, I, I would now I just don't really drink at all. But, uh, at the time that was it. So we had gone out the night before and he was very hungover. And he said that he just, he got these really bad hangovers that the only thing that would help with these, these fruit smoothies and things like that, he used to get these terrible hangovers, just felt miserable. The only thing that would help these smoothies and you're saying is just like, I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. So I can go back to Norway. They don't have these, they don't have smoothie shops in Norway. It's just ice and snow all the time. No one's buying a frozen drink, you know, they just be insane. So it's like, it's, um, you just don't have these. So I don't know, but I need them. I need my smoothies. Like I can't, I can't deal with a hangover without these things. And so he's like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know. I don't know if I just have to open a smoothie shop or learn how to make them. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the hell I'm going to do." He ended up actually opening one and making one. It was largely to do with that he needed those. He just needed to supply these things. And it took off, which was really great. And so that was the first smoothie chain in Scandinavia. And I don't even know how it's doing now, but hopefully it's doing well. It's still here. It's doing well, yeah. But you never tasted those, I guess. No. I did then. I did then because that was when I was in England. And it just sort of slipped off of doing that. And so when we went over there, we did do that. And yes, we went out drinking in Oslo and then the next morning we went in to get smoothies. That's exactly what happened. But apart from the meat and the fish, you just stay there. And if you go to a party or you're invited to some kind of celebration, how do you solve that problem? Oh, well, it's generally not really a problem. You know, there's, there's generally always meat on the menu. You know, if you're, if you're going to a restaurant or something like that, there's, there's always meat. If you're going to someone's house, unless it's purely vegan fair, you know, there should be something in there as you just take, take the bits that you want and you leave the rest. You know, quite often I eat about a kilo of meat a day and maybe in one sitting. So, you know, it's like, you know, two and a bit pounds. And I'm not, you know, I mean, you're gonna spend $500, you know, getting a steak that big at a restaurant, you know, so it's just like, you know, don't waste your money. So I tend to eat first. and then go and go out and have something just to be social. If you don't really pay attention to it, no one else does either, you just order what you order. There's always meat on the menu. You just order what you want, you eat the parts that you want, you leave the rest. No one ever says anything about it unless you bring it up and you make a point of it and start saying, oh, I don't want this, I want it like that, I want it like that. Just order it, ask for the sauce on the side and just eat the meat, leave the rest. And then your friends, get used to the way you're eating and they stop caring. People don't, people don't really care in the end. It's just sort of, it's sort of weird at first. It's sort of a novelty and they think like, well, what about this? Why are you doing that? And they might ask questions, but now it's that people don't even really have that problem. Like sort of the way it's been paved because There's a lot of people doing this now. There's a lot of people trying this. So, it's not like a strange thing. You know, people for decades have been doing like ketogenic diets or Atkins, and that was weird at first, but then people just sort of, oh yeah, they're doing Atkins. Oh, I'm just cutting out carbs. Oh, okay. Now it's the same with carnivore. So, people are just like, oh yeah, I'm just trying that carnivore thing, just eating meat. Oh, cool. How's that going? You know, and that seems to be what's going on now. So, if you're at a party and it's like just little finger foods and things like that, and there's nothing that you particularly want to eat, just don't eat. You know, I generally don't eat more than once every 24 hours and I'm fine. You know, if I'm on call and I'm in surgery all night. I may not eat for 36 hours or longer. It has definitely been longer. I think the longest I've gone was four days without eating. I felt fine. The first day, it was a bit peckish. Towards the end of the day, my body was like, hey, this is about when we eat. Where's that steak, buddy? And I was like, well, I'm going to be in surgery all night and tomorrow, so this is probably not going to happen. And my body just said, yeah, fine. Because it knew that I tapped into my fat stores. My body knew that I had weeks and weeks and weeks of available energy before I even started dropping into my muscle tissue. And so you just don't get hungry. And the next day, I wasn't hungry at all. Next day, I wasn't hungry at all. Next day, I wasn't hungry at all. And then when I was just like, I was like, all right, and I sort of wanted to see what it would feel like to do a bit of that. I don't think you need to fast on a carnivore diet. I think you just eat what your body's telling you to eat. But we're certainly designed to have the capacity to do that. All animals have the ability to manage a famine and get through a famine. If you don't, then you're not going to make it as a species. And we're here. So obviously, we made it through some famines. And by the time I was ready to eat, I was like, well, I should eat. Because I don't want to undereat because I was doing that my early 20s. No one told me any of this sort of stuff So it's nice that I've had this experience and I can sort of tell people I do my my video Getting started on it or a carnivore diet for beginners I sort of go through some of these things and some of the pitfalls that I I ran up against and I wasn't eating enough In my early 20s, but no one told me that I needed to I just never felt hungry So I would go four days easily without eating because I just wouldn't think about it And I wouldn't be hungry. I was like, well, I'm not hungry. There's no point in eating. I'll just keep going. Then I'd eat a whole bunch because I was just like, well, look, it's been four days. I have to do something. I'm working out seven hours a day. So I need to do something. And I would eat and it would taste amazing. And I would just finish that off and then go again. But it hit a point where I wasn't eating enough and I just lost too much weight. And so I was like, okay, I have to eat more. So I didn't want to do that. So I'd already not eaten for four days. And even though my body was just like, yeah, you're fine. I didn't want to get back into that habit of not eating enough. And so I started eating again, but it didn't even need that much. My body was just like, yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe a little bit. So it's actually really easy. So if you're just gonna skip one meal, it's not the end of the world. So if you're at a party or you're at a dinner thing or whatever, and there's nothing for you to eat there, You don't really need to eat. You're not starving. Your body knows that. You have plenty of energy available to you. You're not emaciated, unless you are emaciated. But if you're not in that situation, then you're fine. I would far rather not eat than eat something harmful, than eat something poisonous. And that's the thing. It's not benign. It's not, oh, it's not as good as it could be. They're actual toxins. in these foods that actually cause real diseases. All these non-communicable chronic diseases, diabetes, many cancers, heart disease, and autoimmunity, all these other sorts of things, they're all in my opinion, caused directly by eating a biologically inappropriate diet. So I have no interest in eating these things from that standpoint. But also when I eat them, I feel worse. It makes me feel bad. Food should make you feel good, should not make you feel bad. This is not something that you should put in your body unless it's beneficial. So I just don't. Perfect, really good advice for us. And Monique and I, we started talking about the carnivore diet four years ago, and we were looked at upon as a weirdos. But now, it's really catching on here in Norway, and we get so many questions. So we want to ask you, first of all, what about supplements? Where do you get your vitamin C when you're on a carnivore diet? And what about electrolytes and the salt? And what do you drink? Okay. And, um, well, so, I mean, you know, I think that it's like, you know, it's not really a carnivore diet. You can, you can start thinking of it as like the Viking diet, you know, what were the Vikings eating? You know, when, when they were doing these long sea voyages, where did they get their vitamin C, where'd they get their electrolytes? They got it from meat. They would use it, you know, salted, salted meats, just barrels of salted. fish and mutton and things like that. And so, that's what they were eating. That's where they got everything. When you eat meat, you don't need vitamin C to make collagen. That's what scurvy is. It's a collagen, a malformation of collagen. So, you get weak collagen, weak connective tissue. Your gums bleed, your tissues friable, you fall apart, you die. It's very serious. That comes from not having proper collagen. The way vitamin C helps with that is it catalyzes a reaction that hydrolyzes two amino acids called proline and lysine, so they can make tight bonds. They sort of come up in a spiral pattern, a tight spiral pattern, sort of like a rope, like a braided rope of these amino acids and they bind tightly. So it's a really strong cable as opposed to a loose frayed cable. And when you don't have hydrolyzed proline and lysine, it's very loose and it's weak and it falls apart. So vitamin C helps catalyze those reactions to hydrolyzed proline and lysine, but you only need it if you need to hydrolyze proline and lysine. If you're eating meat that has collagen, it already has proline and lysine hydrolyzed. And so you don't need the vitamin C for that. So you have an abundance of the building blocks for collagen without the vitamin C. There are other things that vitamin C helps with, but you need far less and there's more than enough in meat. In fact, there is vitamin C in meat and there's more vitamin C in liver than there is in apples. People don't know that. But, and you certainly don't need it. And also, when you're eating carbohydrates, it actually blocks out your absorption of vitamin C. Carbohydrates compete for binding sites with vitamin C, so the GLUT4 receptor. Vitamin C is very similar, molecularly, to a carbohydrate molecule. And so they both bind into the GLUT4 receptor. And if you're eating carbohydrates, you will overwhelm your GLUT4 receptors. And you need an abundance of vitamin C in order to overwhelm that carbohydrate load and actually get some into your body. So if you're eating carbohydrates, you need vitamin C measured in milligrams. But if you're eating a carnivore diet, you're not eating carbohydrates. Then you need vitamin C measured in nanograms, which is one millionth of a milligram. So it's a very, very different story. So there are milligrams of vitamin C in meat and certainly in liver and definitely more than nanograms. So you get plenty of vitamin C for your needs. And if you're eating more plant proteins and you need to hydrolyze proline and lysine, sure, you need vitamin C. But if you're not in that category, then you don't. So the British sailors were called limeys because they were giving their sailors limes so they didn't get scurvy. But who was getting scurvy? It was the sailors, not the officers. The officers had meat. They never got scurvy. It was the sailors in front of the mast that got scurvy, and so they were just being fed gruel and grog and things like that. Norwegians weren't. The French weren't. The Portuguese weren't. The Spanish weren't. They were making fun of the British. That's why they called them limeys. That was a pejorative. They were making fun of them. It was, oh, look at these limeys. They're eating limes. What idiots. None of the other countries were doing that. right? Because they weren't getting it. They didn't actually believe them that this was a problem that needed to be solved with limes. You know, the ancient Greeks. I've read, you know, the Odyssey many times. I've not once have I read about Odysseus eating limes and bringing limes on board. It was meat. They brought meat. That's what they did. And, you know, so and that's what, you know, the Vikings did. And that's what the Romans did and all these other sorts of people. It wasn't until know, very recently that the British started having that problem. That's because they weren't feeding their sailors properly. And that's why they got that. So that's why we think of it in that way. You get everything you need from meat. You get everything you need from meat in the proportion that you need it. How do we know that? Because we exist and we had to survive through ice ages, you know, Ragnarok, you had to go through like just ice. I actually think that's probably what that is, those oral traditions, talking about Ragnarok and Fenrir coming over and it just turns everything to ice. That's a pretty good description of ice ages and it's cyclical, it comes and goes and comes and goes, right? So there's like this pattern of these ice ages. I actually think that's probably what it is. And when that was there and we were just hunting mammoths in the ice, there's no plants really to speak of. What plants were we eating when people crossed the land bridge from Asia to North America during the last ice ages in the Arctic Circle on an ice bridge? Right? So where were the plants, where were the crops, where were the roots and tubers and berries and honey that didn't exist? So if we couldn't not only survive, but thrive. on only what comes in meat, we wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have made it. They wouldn't have made it to North America. People think, well, we ran away to the equator when the ice shelves came down. Someone just made that up. There's no evidence for that. In fact, the evidence shows that Homo habilis, when the ice shelves started coming down, Homo habilis started going into the ice. and attacking into the ice because presumably that's where their main prey was, which was the megafauna. And then again, we definitely weren't at the equator crossing the land bridge from Russia to Alaska, right? That definitely wasn't around the equator. And so, you'd have to go through thousands of generations with only meat in some areas. And sometimes, certainly some areas, they had some plants accessible to them. A lot of times our Anthropological records show that Native Americans did not eat plants, even when they had it available to them. In Northern America and Southern Canada, there are records from New England colonists and early settlers in that area looking at these Native Americans that were in what's now Canada, but it was during what's called the Little Ice Age. It was just uninhabitable. at least for cities and things like that, civilization. But there were people there. There were Native Americans there. that were living there year round. And they said, look, nine months out of the year, it's just covered in snow and ice. So they're like, I get it. You can't grow anything. You have to hunt. You have to just eat meat. But three months out of the year when it's thawed, surely they can live off of the plants and things like that that grow around them or plant something. And they were like, but they don't. They just eat meat. So there's a preference there. They were just eating meat. The Plains Indians in North America, they just ate bison. And they did a buffalo drop, where they would scare a herd of buffalo over a cliff. They'd crash and burn, and they'd carve them up and dry them and mix them with fat and make pemmican, which is very high fat. It's two grams of fat to one gram of protein. And that's what they'd eat for the rest of the year. They had plenty of access to plants. They didn't eat them. They eat meat. That's what they wanted to eat. And so, you know, that's, that's, uh, we see that in Australia and we see that in Africa, we see all these other sorts of places. So you can definitely get everything you need from just meat, um, and just water. You just drink water. So I only eat, I only eat meat. I only drink water. I don't, I don't take anything else. I don't take any supplements. You don't need to. And, um, you know, at first, if you're nutritionally deficient, sure. And you want to take, if you're very low on something, you know, you're below 400 on B12. Yeah. Get a shot. Absolutely. You know, that's, that's dangerous. That's way too low. But, um, you know, just adding a bit of liver and organs, that's as much of a supplement as you need to catch you up generally. And then just eat meat. Perfect. But what about fiber? How do you get to the bathroom when you are on a carnivore diet and don't get any fiber? Well, that's the thing, you know, people say, well, you can't go to the bathroom without it. I was like, well, I guess then, you know, I must be out to here now in the last six years if I haven't gone to the bathroom. 70% of animal species are carnivores. So 70% of species at least don't get fiber. And a lot of other animals do. I mean, what about hummingbirds? You know, they just drink nectar. They don't get fiber. Well, how do they do it? And then different birds and things like that, the insects or birds of prey, of course you can defecate without it. It's actually fat that drives your digestion. And it wasn't until the 1980s that everyone started getting constipated because they were cutting out the fat. And so everyone was cutting out fat and everyone was getting constipated. Oh, what's going on? Everyone's got problems. I remember this as a kid being discussed. And on television, different news programs, well, everyone's getting constipated. What do we do? And bring some expert in. Oh, well, you have to eat more fiber. Get more fiber, so big bulk and peristalsis of your gut will move this all through. Well, why didn't we need fiber before 1986? Like, why was that? Why did that just happen then? Did our guts and biology and physiology fundamentally change during that time period? Well, no, of course not. What changed we stopped eating fat and then so we started getting constipated your body has a limited capacity to absorb fat after that there's a spillover mechanism and so you Absorb all the fat that your body wants which is why you make bile bile is required to absorb fat after you run out of bile, which you will do eventually and Your body, it's very difficult for your body to absorb fat. You can absorb a very small amount, but it's limited. And the rest of it comes out. And if you eat a lot more fat than your body can absorb, you'll get diarrhea. This is where the term quicker than fat through a goose comes from. You give a chunk of fat to a goose, it just comes right out the other end in a couple minutes. It's pretty dramatic. And so, that'll happen to you. And so, if you get enough fat that you satisfy your body and you absorb it all and then a little bit extra, that's what keeps your stool soft. And since you're not eating fibrous food, fiber is non-digestible. It's not possible for our bodies to break it down and absorb it. By definition, it has to go out. And so, by definition, we really shouldn't put it in our mouths in the first place. And so, meat doesn't do that. You absorb 98% of the meat that you eat because we're designed to eat it and we're designed to absorb it. So, we're very good at that. We only absorb about 5% of that because 95% or so of the plant is fibrous and can't be broken down or absorbed in our body. So, it has to go out. And so, if you just eat meat, you're going to go far less often and with a far smaller volume. So, people might freak out like, oh my God, I'm supposed to go every day. I have to eat fiber or I won't go. You don't have to go to the bathroom just for the sake of going to the bathroom. If it doesn't happen, then I'll explode. Will you? Why is that? You just eliminate waste as you have it. If you don't have waste, then you don't need to eliminate waste. It's pretty easy. And so, if you're eating a whole bunch of fiber, then you have to have it go out. So, maybe you're not eliminating out as much, you're not going as much, and so you get worried, so I must be blocked up. As long as you're eating enough fat, you won't be. It'll come out nice and soft, it just won't be that often. So that's my experience too, whenever I do carnivore weeks, I don't do it all the time, but the weeks, it always increases my bold. But anyway, we have to talk about that the carnivore diets increases the LDL and the heart disease risk, because so many people contact us after even ketogenic, but also carnivore, and they come to the doctor, you know what they answer, tell us about your side of this story. Well, it's really the story really because the LDL and cholesterol in general was never the cause of heart disease in the first place. No serious scientist independently came up with the idea that cholesterol caused heart disease. That was a complete invention from the sugar companies. because someone really was coming up with, some independent scientists were coming up with the idea that sugar was causing the rise in cardiovascular disease. And so, they had to put out opposition research. They came up with this idea, and then they started paying off different scientists and researchers like Ansel Keys and a number from Harvard in order to have them push out this idea that cholesterol caused heart disease. They had a lot of money behind it. The other people on the other side were just doing this because they're actual good researchers. But the sugar companies were just dumping money into this. That's not conjecture. That's not supposition that was them saying this their own Internal memos were published in the journal, the American medical association, 2016, detailing how they paid off three Harvard professors to falsify data and publish fraudulent studies to make it appear as if cholesterol cause heart disease was really sugar and to exonerate sugar and say that it was safe. And one of those professors was named head of the USDA. And he was the one who authored and published the USDA declaration saying that cholesterol cause heart disease, saturated fat, crease cholesterol, stop eating both. And there's more documentation, their own documentation. about how they're paying off Ansel Keys and many other people. They invented this idea. This was a fiction from the beginning. We know what they got paid. We have their contracts. They got paid $6,500 in the currency of the time, which is about $55,000 now. So they rolled off with a sweet new Camry and they sold out the health of the entire world. It's absolutely despicable and reprehensible, but there's large precedence for that. The American Heart Association, was bought and paid for by the sugar companies as well. They falsify and misrepresented the Framingham study, which was a cardinal piece of literature in cardiology, where it was reported by the AHA and taught to me in medical school and many others that as you increase cholesterol, total cholesterol, cardiovascular mortality rates went up. And that's wrong. That's not what the Framingham study showed. The Framingham study's actual data, and this is now published in more recent journals in the last 10 years, that they actually showed that as you reduced total cholesterol, as people had less total cholesterol, rates of cardiovascular disease, death, mortality went up. So it's an inverse relationship. So in fact, they found a protective relationship between cholesterol and cardiovascular disease. Always remember too, that the very first death from myocardial infarction heart attack in America confirmed on autopsy was in 1912. So first one, there isn't a single piece of reported case in the literature in all of America or the colonies before 1912 of someone dying from a heart attack. I've spoken to different people and they've looked in this, they've found a few case reports, isolated case reports of death from myocardial infarction confirmed on autopsy throughout all of Europe, throughout the entire 1800s. And then exactly one that I can find as an obscure reference at a conference of someone finding a thrombus in the coronary vessels in a patient they did an autopsy on in the 1700s. So, people could see this. They were doing hundreds of autopsies. People do hundreds and hundreds of autopsies over their career. They were brilliant anatomists. They were doing a lot of autopsies and dissections. at the time, and they just didn't see this. If you look at medical textbooks from the 1800s, which I have, I have a textbook from Dr. William Osler. He's one of the greatest medical teachers in history. He was the first professor of medicine at Johns Hopkins. I have his textbook that was my great-grandfather's who graduated from Columbia Medical School in the 1890s. It's a very massive chapter on all the different cardiac maladies and all the different congenital anatomical differences, things you see on autopsy, all these different sorts of diseases and problems that afflicted the heart in the 1800s. Not a single mention. of thrombus in the coronary vessels, heart attack. This was a brand new disease in the early 1900s. In fact, people didn't believe that this person got it right. They said, look, we've all done tons of autopsy. We just don't see that. We don't believe you. We think you got it wrong. I think it's just congealed blood, whatever. You got it wrong. They didn't believe him until about 10 years later when more of these started showing up. They said, oh, okay, look, it looks like there's a new disease on the horizon. 10 years after that in the 1930s, it becomes the number one killer in America. During the 1920s and 1930s, Americans were eating the least amount of meat in 200 years. We're eating far more meat in the 1800s than we were in the 1920s and 1930s. So there is no correlation whatsoever between eating meat or animal fat and heart disease. And in fact, throughout the 20th century, saturated fat sort of stayed pretty flatline across the 20th century. And yet heart disease went right up. Animal fats actually went down. So it's actually an inverse relationship. between animal fats, which are not all saturated fats, and there are saturated fats in plant oils. Coconut oil is nearly 100% saturated fat. But if you just look at animal fats, as we decreased animal fat consumption, heart disease rates went up. It's an inverse relationship. So cholesterol is a scam. It's a scam to sell hundreds of billions of dollars worth of pharmaceuticals like statins, which are the most successful drug that's ever been put on the market. You think that they're ever going to admit that you don't need these things? You're going to have to pry those things out of their cold, dead fingers before they give them up. That has been the biggest moneymaker that they've ever had, but it's treating a problem that never existed in the first place. And now they're trying to get more and more people at younger, younger ages requiring statins. And that's the thing, Goldman Sachs, they had a presentation of theirs leaked. Um, and it said, you know, is, is curing disease a viable business model? Right. Saying that if we want to cure disease and it just goes with the problem goes away, right? Like polio, like, you know, they, they screwed that one up. They should, you know, they're still pissed off about that, but. If they cure the disease, then it's just gone, right? But if they just manage the disease and manage the symptoms, but the disease just stays forever, these chronic diseases, non-communicable chronic diseases, which make up 90% of the maladies that we treat now as doctors. Well, then you've got a client for life. It's like any drug dealer. You hook them young and you keep them for the rest of their life, and there's no difference with these medications. So, they're not trying to cure diseases. They're happy that the diseases are there so that they can perpetuate them and just treat the symptoms. There's a whistleblower, Callie Means, who said that these food companies know that we're getting sick. from the food that they're treating us and causing metabolic disease and all these other sorts of issues. And they're fine with that because... They profit on the back end by these pharmaceuticals. They're all sort of heavily invested in each other and tied up with each other. And, um, and so, and he said, I know they know this because I've been in the boardroom meetings with them when they said it. And, uh, one of the things I think it was him, if not another whistleblower who said that one of these pharmaceutical executives said, uh, to try to ask the question, do you want my favorite drug is that our company makes and be like, well, I don't know something that. you know, cures kids with cancer, you know, something actually nice. And no, my favorite drug that our company produces are drugs that cause side effects that we have other drugs that treat those side effects, right? So that's who we're that's who we're dealing with here. They don't they don't care about us. They don't care about our health. They're not trying to help us. There are drugs that are very helpful, very useful, but that's not their mo their mission is to make money. Their mission is to do that any way that they can. And That's what they're doing. So, that's the business model, is the chronic disease business model. They want these diseases there that have no cure, because if you cure it, then that problem goes away and they don't get money off of it, right? You have autoimmune issues. You just stop eating plants, autoimmune issues go away. They just go away. And that's in the literature. With Crohn's disease, you put people on an elemental diet, which is just the nutrients that you need, the macros and micros that you need, nothing else. That's been shown in randomized control trials to be a better treatment for an acute flare-up of Crohn's disease than prednisone. It's steroids, right? So just not eating certain things is a better treatment than steroids, right? That's a cause and effect relationship. You remove something and the effect goes away. You return that something, the effect comes back. That's a cause and effect relationship. There's another study in Crohn's that had removed carbohydrates and fiber. What's left in the plant kingdom when you remove carbohydrates and fiber? Not much, right? And so really what you're eating there is meat. And they were trying to see how long they could keep people in remission. This is a long-term study. So, they found that people would stay in remission without medications up to 51 months by just removing carbs and fiber, right? That's over four years. Contrast that with the control group that without medication stayed in remission zero months. Not a lot of months, right? So, you know, this is the underlying root cause of disease and you just stop eating plants and they go away and that doesn't make anybody money. There's no product at the end of that, right? I don't make money if somebody goes keto. I don't make money if somebody just goes carnivore, right? In fact, I get less because I have less patients. Good. I want less patients. I want less people to be sick. I don't want to treat chronic diseases. Chronic diseases suck. You know, I want to, I want to treat real things, real problems, something that's unavoidable. Someone who's in an accident or something like that. There's some, some sort of, you know, something that's happened. They've fallen off a ladder and, you know, they need help and they need to, you know, get surgery or fix bones or all these other sorts of things. You know, that's what medicine is about. That's what this is for. uh, has been completely corrupted and bastardized to, to make people profit and they're profiting off the suffering of people. So LDL is no different. You know, people are worried about saturated fat. They shouldn't be even the, this is a mainstream opinion. Now the journal, the American college of cardiology, which is the top medical journal in the world published in 2020, a massive literature review and meta analysis, looking at all the top tier levels of evidence to do a saturated fat and cardiovascular disease. looking at randomized controlled trials, meta-analyses of randomized controlled trials. And they found absolutely no correlation whatsoever, no association at all between increased saturated fat intake and cardiovascular disease, none. And either way, you can't show causation by correlation, right? So if you had a correlation, like they said there was in the Framium study, which is actually a lie, that still doesn't show causation. It's just a correlation. You don't know if that's a causation, right? There's a correlation between ice cream sales and shark attacks. Right? So as shark attack, as ice cream sales go up, shark attacks go up. Is that because sharks like eating ice cream filled sweet little children? Or is it that more people buy ice cream when it's hot outside and go swimming in the ocean where the sharks are? Right? So they have nothing to do with each other directly. There's something else that's influencing them. And that's the same. So you don't know where the correlation is a causation. But if something shows there is no correlation, then that proves there is no causation. And that's what we've seen. In fact, they show that there's an inverse correlation with saturated fat intake and stroke. So people that ate more saturated fat had less strokes. People that ate less saturated fat had more strokes. So, saturated fat is really good for you, it's good for your body, it's good for your brain, it's what we've evolved on, it's what we've been eating for millions of years. The idea that something we've been eating for millions of years that we're biologically designed and adapted for is causing harm is pretty laughable. The idea that something we've been eating for millions of years, thousands of years at the very least, Causing a set of diseases that has only shown its head in the last century and is getting worse and worse as we go. And as we remove saturated fat and meat, that is just despicable. That is a flat out lie that has no bearing in the evidence. We love your perspective as a doctor and a biohacker on this view of medicine and medication, of course. But still, there's so many people who get raised levels of, yeah, they see plaque when they do an ultrasound or even atherosclerosis and they get afraid after they change their diets. What would you say to them? Well, it depends on when they're getting it, right? I mean, atherosclerotic plaque takes years and years and years to develop. If you change to a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet, and then you check your plaque and, oh my God, I have plaque. Well, you, you've had plaque. It doesn't mean that you, that that's shown up now. So the thing to do is, you know, just check your plaque before you start the diet and see what your baseline is and then check it again in a year or two. A CAC score is a coronary artery calcium score. That doesn't show you soft plaque. That only shows you the hard plaque, the calcified plaque. But your CAC score can go up and your soft plaque can go down for all you know. Or it could go up and your soft plaque goes up. Or it goes down and your soft plaque goes up. So you don't really know. You only know about the hard plaque. So a CAC score, while it does give very useful information, Um, it's not the whole story. It's not the whole picture. Also people say, Oh, your CAC scores up. You need to go on a stat. Just like when you say you have an infection, you need this antibiotic. You have high blood pressure, you need this medication. You have high blood sugar, you need this other medication. The idea there is, oh, you have this problem, this will treat that problem, this will remove that problem. This is an antibiotic that will fix this infection. You have high blood pressure, this will lower your blood pressure. You have high blood sugar, this will lower your blood sugar. You have high CAC score, you give a statin, the automatic assumption is that's gonna lower your CAC score, right? Yes. Wrong. It goes up. It goes up. Right? Yeah, exactly. And so, like, why are you giving somebody – Oh, your CAC score is elevated. You need to go on a statin. Oh, great. Is that going to lower my CAC score? Oh, no. That's going to go way up. Well, then why am I taking it? Oh, because we have to stabilize the plaque. That's a good thing now. But you said that CAC score going up was bad. Yeah. Oh, it is bad. Yeah. Yeah. But why isn't it bad when the medicine is doing it? Because isn't my body just stabilizing the plaque then? The CST score is going up. I'm stabilizing it myself. Oh, no, no, no, no. No, it's bad if you do it. Only when our drugs do it is it good. I mean, this makes no damn sense. I mean, it's internally inconsistent, right, and conflicting. I think what you want to do is you want to, you want to check before you want to get like a, um, yeah, you know, if your CAC score is zero or something like that, you probably just don't, don't care. Um, and a lot of people do, a lot of people go on a carnivore diet and they have CAC score of zero. A lot of people get, uh, ultrasounds of their carotid artery and they find that the plaque is actually diminishing and going away. Uh, one, um, guy that I know that's in my Patreon group, he had 100% occlusion of his right carotid artery and now it's patent. It's not, There's still plaque there, but it's open and moving blood. Is that because of the carnivore? Is that because you changed his diet? 100%. Yeah. So when you're on a carnivore, you know it's patent. So the natural way of reducing the plaque or the soft or the hard, you can only say the hard, here in Norway at least, what would be your natural suggestion? Well, it's just, again, just getting all these barriers out of natural, normal health. The natural state of humanity is that of health. The natural state is to not develop atherosclerotic plaque and develop heart disease and die. It's like we didn't see this in the 1800s or before, right? So, unless you go way back, you go back 4,000 years to the ancient Egyptians who were eating a ton of grain, pressed seed oils, and a lot of alcohol. You look at their statues, they had pot bellies and man boobs, and there's an Ebers papyrus, it's a medical document from about 4,000 years ago. And they described the symptoms that you'd see before someone drops dead of a heart attack. And they described diabetes, and they described Alzheimer's, right? 4,000 years before it showed up in any real numbers, right? Um, and so that's another Alzheimer's was first described in 1906. It was a single case report of an elderly lady who had neurocognitive decline. And there wasn't a single case report in the literature before that, unless you go back to the Ebers papyrus, um, displaying any other, any similar pathology by any other name. And that's why it's called Alzheimer's disease because it was Dr. Alzheimer's who presented it. There's one case, 1906, right? Now everyone gets it. You get older, you get it. But now it's being called type three diabetes because we understand that this is insulin resistance of the brain. You're not getting enough energy into the brain. Your brain just slows down and decays and erodes. And so you're getting all these sorts of horrible problems. So the natural state of humanity is to be healthy. We're not supposed to be diseased. Animals in the wild don't get diseases like this. Plants don't get animals, for Christ's sake. Animals in the zoo, they have a sign that says, don't feed the animals. It makes them very sick if they eat something that they don't normally eat. And what do they get? They get lupus, they get diabetes, they get cancer, they get other autoimmune issues, they get so-called human diseases. So, you feed animals food, human food, they get human diseases. What does that mean? It means the food is causing the disease. And the so-called human diseases are increasing rapidly in the pet population because they're being fed this packaged garbage that's largely plant-based because it's cheap. It's cheap to produce and they can just shove it out there. And that's what they do because they're trying to make a profit. It's not the right thing for your dog or your cat. Dogs and cats eat meat. That's what they need. And, um, science diet. Oh, okay. Yeah. Science told you to put, you know, wheat germ, a gluten in, in, in something for a cat. Like why the hell would a cat need that? Right. Cat needs meat. You know, they're obligate carnivores. And so, you know, this is why they're getting sick. And so we're getting sick. And so you stop, you take these things away. If you take away the cause, the effect goes away and the body can heal a lot of this. It may not heal everything, but it certainly can heal a lot of it. We have clinical trials in humans showing that you can reverse type two diabetes with these dietary interventions. Now remember, ketogenic diets are just removing carbohydrates, but what kind of ketogenic diets do they do? What are you replacing those carbohydrates with? You're replacing them with meat and animal fat is what you're doing. You could do a plant-based ketogenic diet, but it's next to impossible. You have to use a whole bunch of seed oils and things like that to get enough energy, and you would have to take copious amounts of supplements to get just basic nutritional needs. They don't in these studies. Those studies don't use vegetarian ketogenic diets. They use animal-based ketogenic diets. So they're replacing carbs with meat and animal fat. And so it's actually a whole food animal-based diet is the most rigorously studied diet on earth is carnivore light. It's a carnivore diet with a salad. That's the most rigorously studied diet with randomized controlled trials and interventional trials for specific medical outcomes like diabetes. And Virta Health has done this with a large human trial showing that you can reverse type 2 diabetes with a high-fat meat-based ketogenic diet. Goes away, right? Same thing with these autoimmune issues. Same thing with Alzheimer's that's been shown in experimental trials with ketogenic diets. Again, it's then animal-based ketogenic diets. has been shown in clinical trials to be the most effective treatment for Alzheimer's, better than every medication ever trialed for Alzheimer's. There are people right now reversing people's Alzheimer's and dementia to significant degrees, sometimes even getting them home from nursing homes right now. This is actually in practice right now using these approaches. So, If you just stop eating things that cause harm, that harm's going to go away, right? So if you had ancient Rome, they had lead pipes, they didn't realize it, they're all getting low-grade lead poisoning, and they just thought, oh, this is normal. But then you figured out, hey, lead's causing the problem. We need to get rid of this. These people just got a bit better. We're living in our lead pipes. We need to get rid of these stupid things. We don't have clinical trials showing that you remove these things and it will remove these things, except for recent data with the lean mass hyper responders, which is from Dave Feldman and his party, his group. They looked at high fat animal-based ketogenic diets, like a carnivore diet, some of his patient population might actually be carnivore, I'm not sure, but it's just looking at keto, meat-based high-fat keto. And carnivore diet is a ketogenic diet. And these people had elevated LDL cholesterols. According to traditional standards, I think they're just normal. I think that's a normal LDL and you're supposed to have that in large population studies with 12 million patients, higher LDL equal higher life, longer life expectancy, um, lower infectious disease, lower breast cancer rates, um, and, uh, lower Alzheimer's, lower dementia, lower Parkinson's. That wasn't in that 12 million one, but there's many studies that have shown these relationships. Uh, there was a study out of Sweden last year that showed that, um, with 44,000 patients, that higher cholesterol was associated with living over 100, that the two best biomarkers for living over 100 was low fasting insulin. So no carbs, ketogenic. and high total cholesterol. So be on a high fat meat based ketogenic diet and you're more likely to live over 100. Basically what that found. So the lean mass hyper responders, they had these people with higher than average LDL, which I think is normal for us. That's what we want. Um, for an average of 4.7 years and they're on this high fat meat based animal based diet, right? And for four and a half years, 4.7 years that is elevated LDL levels. And they found no progression in their atherosclerosis. They did angiograms. You do a CT angiogram. Or other sorts of angiograms you can actually see the total plaque burden and they found no progression in atherosclerosis In fact, the trend was to decrease atherosclerosis right So that's not a pure interventional trial there. This is a prospective cohort study These are all people that are doing this and we're just seeing what happens with it It's not we took two different groups and randomized them and say okay you do this intervention you do this intervention and see but That's what we see. So you see people eating a lot of meat, a lot of fat, so-called elevated LDL. They're not raising their atherosclerotic burden. In fact, they're decreasing it. And there's a lot of other things that come into as well. Stress is a major thing. Poor sleep is a major thing. And so, you know, all these other sorts of things, they all matter, but the food itself, that's not going to do it. The one study that I know of that's actually an interventional trial that's been shown to reverse atherosclerosis in humans was on meditation. People do mindful meditation for 40 minutes a day, reduce their stress, lower their cortisol, actually showed that you reversed atherosclerosis. So we are certainly seeing a lot of people that are reversing their atherosclerosis or moving it in the opposite direction. But the lean mass hyper responders is one that at least has a decent population that is showing that same trend as well. And the next step is the interventional trials just to hammer the last nail into the coffin, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. Dave Feldman's study is really incredible actually, that he's doing this and it's so, yeah, it's cool to see how this is, how far this is going to go. Yeah. But Anthony, this has been really interesting. Yes. So nice. And so, yeah, so nice for you to take the time to talk to us today after a long day for you. And share your knowledge. We are so happy about it and we will share your links to all your content, which is really amazing. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. It was a pleasure to finally meet you both. And hopefully we can meet at a conference one day. Yes, I hope we will see you. We will. We just have to set our mind on it and it will happen. Great. Thank you. Some guests are just like that. If you ask a question, it's almost like you're pressing a button. And the nice thing about Anthony Chaffee is that he answers everything we ask. So either we've just done really good research on this, or he's just incredibly good at sharing everything he can, or maybe it's both. I actually think he's so knowledgeable, because he can refer to so many things with studies and And what I'm thinking about now, is all the angles of influence when you look at health. It's not just the food, it's stress too, and it's also toxic effects, as we've talked a lot about with Steven Hussey, so feel free to go back and listen to that podcast too, in relation to heart health. There are so many things to deal with. But carnivores, yes, I kind of want to go into that again, one more time. Yes, it is easy to fall into the fact that there is only food when we talk a lot about food. And it is not so strange, because food is so easy to take as a starting point. It is so easy because we have so many chances to make it better. Every single day we eat. And it is a very, very nice start, but luckily to come in at the end of the conversation, I am very happy we got that, that there are of course several things in our lives that play into this with heart health and other health. Yes, because it's a bit strange when you go to the doctor and you take an ultrasound of your throat, the main pulse, and you see that you find plaque formation there, and you are afraid that this will lead to a heart attack, and that you may need statins. And then the doctor may only look at the diet. In the best case, you have a doctor who looks at the whole picture, stress management, and maybe what supplements you have, if you smoke, if you drink, if you have a family history. But many times it is the diet that often becomes the sin book. That's exactly it. It is diet and medication, Monika. Don't forget the medication, then I often get questions if you want to bring them out of the doctor's office. But you, we hope that you have learned a lot from this episode and that you maybe get the curiosity and the desire to test this. What is the worst that can happen? Either that you feel better or that you feel worse. But with our experience, as I said at the beginning, it's nice to find out how a type of carnivore diet can change a lot, both of your energy level, cravings for sugar and other things. You reset yourself in a way, your mood becomes more stable. It was so strange, the first times, four years ago, I felt that we went around and smelled cows and fish all the time. But after a while, when you get used to eating carnivores, you feel everything so foreign and processed food so very clearly as wrong for the body. And then you get a completely different mindset, because it is not easy to live so different from everyone else. So you get a little stronger in your head too, and you get a completely different calm around eating. Okay, I hope you didn't get more confused, but maybe got even more things to think about. I encourage you to listen to this episode with both Stephen Hussey and Mark Twyman, if you're thinking about cholesterol, LDL, diabetes and stuff like that, just to calm down a bit there too. and of course talk to your own doctor. Don't take the podcast and all the media as direct advice to you. We share information and hope you get inspired. So we wish you a nice week ahead and Crack It, Hack It! We remind you to talk to your own doctor or dietitian about diets and other questions related to medicines and supplements. Information with parts cannot be used to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any diseases or conditions. How many deodorants do you have? One. And perfumes? One. What is it? It's just that Fredrik and Louisa are cuckoos, but they have super many. Why is that? No, I mean, change it up a bit. For every day, and for parties. Now you get a 30% discount on thousands of perfumes and deodorants at Fredrik and Louisa. Fredrik and Louisa. Perfumery with the good offers.